LM-1 problems/errors (pic)

[WadeT]

I've got this problem with a LM-1. It keeps giving me a "cell error 05" everytime I turn it on. The warm-up get's to ~85% then the error message executes.

http://www.fototime.com/FFEFC3868C2DE26/standard.jpg


It all started when I slammed the hood on the o2 side plug on accident. 2 of the wires were ripped out at the plug, pins 3 and 4. There was a blue & green soldiered to gether going to 3 or 4. And there was a red and orange going to 3 or 4... I don't know what goes to what.

I've reversed them back and forth and still get the error 05. Pic -> http://www.fototime.com/31DA84FE379F177/standard.jpg

Thanks.

[BillyM]

replace that beeoch, they aren't too expensive from innovate if I remember correctly.... ...that error is finding an unusual reading from the O2 sensor, as if there was some impedance introduced when you patched it back up...

--BillyM

[drftsupramk2]

Is that the broken plug of Aarons? replace it.

[WadeT]

Yeah, gonna replace it since I'm buying it from him.

[drftsupramk2]

you're buying it from him? he had one good plug what happened to that?

[WadeT]

you're buying it from him? he had one good plug what happened to that?

Did'nt know there was another plug... Oh well, my fuk up so I buy it. I need LM1 anyway! :lol:

[BillyM]

Good god, you guys have beat the crap out of my LM1.

...if that's the one Aaron's been using for a while, it was one of the first one's he ordered for me, and I told him he could keep it for a couple of weeks and dick around with it, long story-short, he kept it and ordered me another.

--billyM

[drftsupramk2]

well lets see I stuck in a hookers.................yeah you get the picture. It's a little "used and abused"

[BillyM]

well lets see I stuck in a hookers......

What were her AFR's like? You have the log file from that data-acq?

:lol:

--BillyM

[StanS]

Having never seen a dyno run performed, I'd like to ask a few questions pertaining to the accuracy of the measurements using the LM-1.

How long does it take at wot to go from say 2500 to 6000 rpm? Do/can they vary the load so it takes say 5-10 seconds (or more) so the ox sensor has time to respond?

What is the (time constant) response time of the Bosch LSU4.2 ox sensor, the one used with the LM-1? (I can check with innovative on this one).

If the ox sensor takes about 1 second to respond, then you have to go up steep hills to slow the rate at which rpm's increase at wot to get accurate measurements.

[CJSREDPRA]

How long does it take at wot to go from say 2500 to 6000 rpm?

On a normally aspirated motor (assuming a W58 5-speed, since you are doing the pull in 4th gear, which is the 1:1 ratio) 10, maybe 15 seconds is about right. This is a rough guess, I have not brought out a stopwatch to see how long it takes, I should try this, the next time someone dyno's a NA powered MKII. Usually when I'm dyno'ing my car or someone else's, I'm paying attention to the Tachometer. Having done mutilple pulls on my Supra's & other members Supra's, 10 seconds in this case is in the ballpark.

Turbo will vary, depends on how much boost you're running. Also makes a difference if your are running NOS or not. Depends on response time.

The load on the dyno rollers themselves does not vary or change, it stays the same for everyone, no matter who's car is strapped in. The dyno operator has no interaction w/ a load adjustment on the rollers, because there isn't one. The ONLY interaction the operator has w/ the rollers, is to press the button that engages the brakes on the rollers when the pull is done. No load adjustment here either, the brakes are either on or off.

[BillyM]

Comparing TPS, RPM, and o2 inputs, enrichment shows on the graph within 1/3rd of a second after stabbing the throttle....

...lm1 is damn quick.

--BillyM

[StanS]

If the load doesn't change from car to car then the time to do the run will be inversely proprtional to AVERAGE torque output over the run. So a car whose average torque is 300 lb-ft will take 1/2 the time that a 150 lb-ft car will take.

Ox sensor response time should be the limiting factor when measuring a/f. For those that don't know, response time is the time to reach a specified amount shy of the final (or true) value that you would read if you could read it forever. Reacting quickly doesn't necessarily mean that a measurement is accurate or accurate enough for your purposes. So if the a/f value is changing as rpm is increasing, the response time of the Ox sensor will ALWAYS add some error to the reading. As the Ox sensor's response time is faster and faster compared to the rate at which rpm is changing the error will become smaller and smaller. There are some electronic things that could be done to predict more closely to the correct value if you know what sort of voltage vs time the Ox sensor will be producing but the designer has to be very careful here if the device isn't used exactly as he predicts he could make the error worse, not better. I'll ask Bosch and /or innovative about the response time.

Here's an example with simple unrealistic numbers that i'm making up for clarification purposes. Let's say that the ox sensor's output goes from 0 to 1 volt for an a/f change from 11 to 15 if the dyno run took 1 minute and the Ox sensor reached 0.63 volts (63% of final value, 1 Volt, is real) in 2 seconds. The response time constant of the Ox sensor would be 2 seconds if it is a "simple" device as I am guessing. Now let's say that the a/f changes in a straight line from a/f=11 to a/f=15 in 10 seconds. This Ox sensor's output voltage would lag the correct output voltage by 2 seconds. So the correct voltage would be 0 volts at 0 seconds, 0.1 V at 1 sec, 0.2V at 2 sec, 0.3V at 3 sec, 0.4 v at 4 sec, up to 1.0V at 10 sec. The ox sensor output would be 0.2 volts at 4 seconds, 0.3 v at 5 sec, and 0.8 V at 10 sec. So over most of the transition this ox sensor would creating reading 0.2V low for a 10 second transition time.

[BillyM]

"Here's an example with simple unrealistic numbers..."

...exactly Want to make a point, go pick up some real data and make a real point.

LM1 response is fast (no hypothetical b.s. here) and you are more than welcome to compare it to VE tables vs injector-open widths/pressures to see how quickly it reacts.... ...as for it being "correct" or not, pffft.

--BillyM

[StanS]

I sent a question to Bosch about the Ox sensor. Hopefully they'll answer.

The only point I was trying to make is that you may want to slow down your rate of acceleration at wot by going up hills while you're reading.

Anyway I found out Strauss discounts the Lm-1. The LM-1 + Aux Box costs $202 vs $589 everywhere else I looked. All the auxilliary bits and pieces are less too.

[Donn29]

...Anyway I found out Strauss discounts the Lm-1. The LM-1 + Aux Box costs $202 vs $589 everywhere else I looked. All the auxilliary bits and pieces are less too.
where?

[StanS]

I get 10% :lol:

http://www.7453217467431.com/affiliate/strauss/home.jsp?bmForm=search&bmFormID=1109724648484&bmUI D=1109724648484&bmIsForm=true&bmPrevTemplate=affil iate%2Fstrauss%2Fhome.jsp&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C %3Epath&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3Epath=%2FAssortments%2FBr ands%2FAllBrands&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3Eobject Types&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EobjectTypes=PRODUCT&bmHidd en=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EmaxRows_cd&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3E maxRows_cd=25&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchTex tOperator&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchTextOperator=or& bmText=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchFor&SEARCH_INPUT%3C %3EsearchFor=innovate&bmSubmit=partNumSubmit&bmHid den=affID&affID=7251

[Chrisfrom1986]

wow how about you do this to your link plz. lol.

strauss auto LM1 (http://www.7453217467431.com/affiliate/strauss/home.jsp?bmForm=search&bmFormID=1109724648484&bmUI D=1109724648484&bmIsForm=true&bmPrevTemplate=affil iate%2Fstrauss%2Fhome.jsp&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C %3Epath&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3Epath=%2FAssortments%2FBr ands%2FAllBrands&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3Eobject Types&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EobjectTypes=PRODUCT&bmHidd en=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EmaxRows_cd&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3E maxRows_cd=25&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchTex tOperator&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchTextOperator=or& bmText=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchFor&SEARCH_INPUT%3C %3EsearchFor=innovate&bmSubmit=partNumSubmit&bmHid den=affID&affID=7251)

[StanS]

How do u do that?

[Chrisfrom1986]

""type description here" (blahblahblah)"

theres a thread out there about shortening them, use the search button. i just dont remember what i searched for.

[StanS]

Like this
Strauss Auto LM-1 (http://www.7453217467431.com/affiliate/strauss/home.jsp?bmForm=search&bmFormID=1109724648484&bmUI D=1109724648484&bmIsForm=true&bmPrevTemplate=affil iate%2Fstrauss%2Fhome.jsp&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C %3Epath&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3Epath=%2FAssortments%2FBr ands%2FAllBrands&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3Eobject Types&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EobjectTypes=PRODUCT&bmHidd en=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EmaxRows_cd&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3E maxRows_cd=25&bmHidden=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchTex tOperator&SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchTextOperator=or& bmText=SEARCH_INPUT%3C%3EsearchFor&SEARCH_INPUT%3C %3EsearchFor=innovate&bmSubmit=partNumSubmit&bmHid den=affID&affID=7251)

[Dave A.]

Having never seen a dyno run performed, I'd like to ask a few questions pertaining to the accuracy of the measurements using the LM-1.

How long does it take at wot to go from say 2500 to 6000 rpm? Do/can they vary the load so it takes say 5-10 seconds (or more) so the ox sensor has time to respond?

What is the (time constant) response time of the Bosch LSU4.2 ox sensor, the one used with the LM-1? (I can check with innovative on this one).

If the ox sensor takes about 1 second to respond, then you have to go up steep hills to slow the rate at which rpm's increase at wot to get accurate measurements.


I've often wondered about this myself. Changes in the A/F ratio and the O2 content in the exhaust can happen pretty darn fast. Especially while driving as opposed to being strapped to a dyno load. An EGT pyrometer probably takes even longer to respond than a O2 sensor. Hmmmm...this is getting interesting. :lol:

[Dave A.]

[quote]
The load on the dyno rollers themselves does not vary or change, it stays the same for everyone, no matter who's car is strapped in. The dyno operator has no interaction w/ a load adjustment on the rollers, because there isn't one. The ONLY interaction the operator has w/ the rollers, is to press the button that engages the brakes on the rollers when the pull is done. No load adjustment here either, the brakes are either on or off.

Every load has a limit. :lol: The dyno operator must take a pretty educated guess as to what he/she expects to see as max. output when they strap a car to the rollers.

[StanS]

The load doesn't determine max rpm (assuming car has enough torqe to get to max rpm). It determines the time it takes to go from run start rpm to run finish rpm. Just like going up a hill. Larger load longer run time. Steeper hill, longer it takes to accelerate from one speed to another.

[WadeT]

The response time is almost instant. Maybe a 1/3 to a 1/2 of a second from real time. Good enough for me.


Having never seen a dyno run performed, I'd like to ask a few questions pertaining to the accuracy of the measurements using the LM-1.

How long does it take at wot to go from say 2500 to 6000 rpm? Do/can they vary the load so it takes say 5-10 seconds (or more) so the ox sensor has time to respond?

What is the (time constant) response time of the Bosch LSU4.2 ox sensor, the one used with the LM-1? (I can check with innovative on this one).

If the ox sensor takes about 1 second to respond, then you have to go up steep hills to slow the rate at which rpm's increase at wot to get accurate measurements.

[shiva]

the response always seemed pretty instant with the techedge i used. same with the fjo and aem that got to see in action. you could tell by how quick it would notice changes in throttle, with and without acceleration enrichments. it seemed pretty much instantaneous. waaaaaay quicker than EGT. my guess is you'll be limited by sampling rates of the electronics if you're looking at logs, and your own damn eyes if you're looking at a display, not by the response time of the sensor, but i could be wrong.

also, one thing to consider is that if o2 content can change rapidly from one combustion event to another, at 3000rpm, you have 150 combustion events per SECOND. so you already have quite a bit of averaging out just to make the data intelligible. this is one reason why i think its stupid to tune a street driven high compression or high boost turbo motor to the absolute edge in terms of getting a/f near 12-12.5 and timing right on the verge of knock.

i think there might be something to be said about loading things up right to tune, but i think it might have more to do with having flow in and out of the engine arrive at a steady-state of sorts. i mean, you know how, with a small wastegate, you get higher boost in higher gears? it just doesn't seem to make any sense. the only difference in higher gears is that there's more time for things to settle at any given point. but, the load in terms of air flow into the engine should be the same. but somehow, waiting longer makes the wastegate unable to flow enough to control boost. why is that?

[WadeT]

also, one thing to consider is that if o2 content can change rapidly from one combustion event to another, at 3000rpm, you have 150 combustion events per SECOND. so you already have quite a bit of averaging out just to make the data intelligible. this is one reason why i think its stupid to tune a street driven high compression or high boost turbo motor to the absolute edge in terms of getting a/f near 12-12.5 and timing right on the verge of knock.

That's why you start tuning with everything turned up pig rich.



i think there might be something to be said about loading things up right to tune, but i think it might have more to do with having flow in and out of the engine arrive at a steady-state of sorts. i mean, you know how, with a small wastegate, you get higher boost in higher gears? it just doesn't seem to make any sense. the only difference in higher gears is that there's more time for things to settle at any given point. but, the load in terms of air flow into the engine should be the same. but somehow, waiting longer makes the wastegate unable to flow enough to control boost. why is that?

Lots of varibles on that one. Turbo has lots of time to spin and produce boost under the heavy load of high gears. The other thing that may cause boost creep is a big intercooler. There's more air passing though it at high speeds as well.

[oldschool85]

while we are on the subject.....when you guys tune for WOT:

-I assume you guys start in 4th gear at 2k rpm til redline correct?
-also do you make changes at the point in which the turbo starts spooling OR when it is fully spooled?
-and what should the afr's be from idle til the point in which you need it to start reading 11.5 afr's? 14afr-13afrs im guessing??? Any answers or comments I would appreciate it.

charlie

[SupraFiend]

...Anyway I found out Strauss discounts the Lm-1. The LM-1 + Aux Box costs $202 vs $589 everywhere else I looked. All the auxilliary bits and pieces are less too.

Fraid not, that 202 is just for the auxbox, which is called the LM3. The LM1, which is the actual dataloger, is 293. Still, very good prices, the best I've seen so far.

[Donn29]

stans, mind edit that long post plz?

[WadeT]

while we are on the subject.....when you guys tune for WOT:

-I assume you guys start in 4th gear at 2k rpm til redline correct?
-also do you make changes at the point in which the turbo starts spooling OR when it is fully spooled?
-and what should the afr's be from idle til the point in which you need it to start reading 11.5 afr's? 14afr-13afrs im guessing??? Any answers or comments I would appreciate it.

charlie

Usually start of in second gear and stand on it somewhere under 3k. That will give a ballpark figure on A/F. Then do third, make corrections after the pull if needed. Can't make changes under boost - things happen way too fast. Then do fourth or part of it. With the 3.73s, fourth tops out at around 130mph at 6800rpm (rev limit). That's too friggin' fast/dangerous for public roads. Save 4th for the dyno or everything if you're unsure. :)

How rich does it read? Rich as all hell when first put your foot down. When the turbo starts to spool, it's rich, like 10:1. Every car is different though. My car is still deep in 11s:1 at the WOT.. 11.7:1 is suppoed to be good for turbos. Idle A/F should be around 14.5:1. I really not the right person to ask about this stuff but the only A/F readings that count are ones under boost and at the WOT.

Hope this makes sense.

later.