Changing ECU from 8mhz to 16mhz

[batmobile]

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[batmobile]

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[RedP85]

My first guess is that it will bot work at all.
This is exactly like overclocking a PC, up to about 10-15% is the max a
system can take as increase. After that, you will start to have crashing issues, mainly because the memory will not be able to follow.

[StanS]

why do you think that speed ing up calculations are going to make any difference? When they designed the ecu they must have designed the hardware so that it could run sufficiently fast to successfully perform all the calculations that they required of it. If you change what's calculated you might get improvement. But you may as well buy a new different ecu like some peeps are looking into (Ford's one i believe) There's no end of other things that you could look into that would be much more fruitful for all of us.

[batmobile]

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[StanS]

Here's the Ford ecu conversion thread.
http://www.celicasupra.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15044&highlight=
If you have an 84 and want to do something interesting then upgrade to the 85 ecu and tps. A writeup would be nice too.

[batmobile]

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[cartman]

so what are the improvements if you ahve an 84 and you switch to an 85 ecu and TPS?

[StanS]

don't know but 85 may learn a/f which 84 doesn't. 85 tps gives ecu a way to tie tp opening to afm. someone on list recently claimed smoother operation with his turboed engine when he switched. Also, 85 has knock sensor which can protect against na detonation.
I suggested it cause I'd like to know if there's any improvement. Why did toy change the tps??

[Jax184]

Oh god where to I begin?
I am a computer tech, have worked professionally for 4 years at repair centers, am fixing a customers laptop as I type this even.

"It's only 8 MHz so doubling it wont make a huge differance"
Wrong. being "only" anything doesnt matter then you're talking about Doubling it. You try making your 3 GHz P4 run at 6 GHz and see what happens.

There's only blah blah blah on the boards
Resistors dont care, but the whole part you're looking to increase in speed is the part that wont take it.
Also, those timing crystals probably handle i/o functions, so switching them might completly throw off the timing of god only knows what.

If you shove the speed up, and the car still starts at all, I doubt it'll work very well for very long. Computers become more sensative to heat when you overclock them, and cars arnt known for being a nice 70 degrees all around.

I could go on for hours, but I really dont wanna read this whole thread a second time. My heat hurts enough from the first.

[Dave A.]

The way I see it, Toyota improved the ECU by starting with the basic analog ECU in 82 and then later introduced the more precision digital microprocessor based TCCS ECU's in 83 and up, with each year seeing an improvement over the previous year. Probably to help gain more precise control over emissions and also to help improve fuel economy and performance at the same time.

The 5MGE ECU IMHO isn't really required to be a super fast responding signal processing unit because the input/output devices that the ECU controls aren't fast acting state of the art devices like some of the new hi-tech devices that you see on more modern day cars. Electronic devices in general respond faster than mechanical devices, and in the case of the older school 5MGE, 8 MHZ is plenty fast enough. Now OTOH, if you were to redesign the 5MGE with more up to date state of the art devices like say a crank triggered ignition and DFI, then a faster responding processing unit would be more advantageous. Another scenario would be to compare the old school 5MGE and it's matching electronics to a F1 race car that demands super fast electronic support, simply because engine load conditions, etc. change much more rapidly on a F1 car than a 5MGE powered MKII. Street driven cars and race cars are two entirely different machines, and generally, the faster things change in an engine's operating conditions, the more precise and faster acting devices and controls that are required to keep things operating at peak efficiency.

The Ford ECM, EEC-V, etc., would probably work well on a reworked 5M/6M with the more modern Ford parts that go along with the faster processing speeds. ie: MAF sensor, crank trigger ignition, VVT, yada-yada.

[batmobile]

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[batmobile]

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[Dave A.]

The crystal would most likely be tied into these circuits:
injectors, ignitor, RPM, ox sensor, AFM.

yes, and all of which are rather sluggish devices compared to the newer hi-tech stuff.


This ECU is very basic compared to todays ECU's which would control 10X as many things, in a newer vehicle.

definitely!


I have spare ECU's and engines, so its something im willing to try out anyways. Its worth the shot.

Absolutely!

[Dave A.]

Thats very true dave. A faster ECU would be more beneficial with better sensors etc.

A brand new ECU with newer sensors and components would definitely be alot more beneficial.

But If I ever go that route, It would just be cheaper to go 7mgte or 2jz, not to mention a better gain in HP/torque all around.



One basic theory that I use is: The faster the engine itself responds, the faster the electronics need to be to keep things in check.

The higher tech of the 2JZ is night and day compared to the 5MGE.

[batmobile]

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[Ross]

In the early '80s I was working at a company that was designing the worlds fastest desktop PCs. IBM had the XT running at 4.77MHz and the AT running at 6MHZ.
We had our computers running initially at 10MHz, then got some engineering prototype samples from Intel that we ran at 12.5MHz, and then we tried to get Intel and AMD to build 16MHz processors for us.
They were not able to get their processors to run at 16MHz even by the late '80s, so I'd say you have no chance at all.

[StanS]

Even the fastest most up to date car NOW could have easily been handled by the 8 MHz 5mge ecu of 84. Let's put some numbers with the claims and compare the time it takes for mechanical events to occur to electronic calculation time. For ease of calculation, let's say that the ecu is running at 10 MHz or 0.1 millionth of a second (0.1usec) per cycle. 1000 cycles takes 0.1 thousandth of a second (0.1msec). You can do a hell of a lot of calculation in a 1000 steps. Now for the mechanical stuff. 6000 rpm = 100 Hz (rev per sec) ---> 10 msec per rev. 10msec per rev / 0.1 msec per function calculation = 100. So at 6000 rpm you can do 100 different 1000 step calculations with a 10 MHz computer. Any event that occurs in a car mechanically is going in Super Slow Motion as far as the electronics are concerned. Modern ecu's are better because they have much more MEMORY so larger programs can be stored and many more things can be calculated. That new ecu's use higher speed clocks is because low speed clocked chips are barely available anymore. High speed clocked electronics cost the same or less than low speed electronics and little or no low speed electronic chips are manufactured anymore (they're obsolete).

So if you want to improve performance, speeding up the electronics is not the place to look. Buy and install a modern ecu that has been programmed to calculate more engine parameters than old ecu's if u want more prerformance. The only thing you can get out of this is learning something about electronics. But you'll learn a lot more if you try to build/develop some improvement that's real. btdt.

[Donn29]

OMG, ur gonna try to unsolder how many ever pins on the cpu/s and try to resolder a faster one in?
WTF? or is the cpus removable?
im 100% sure they wont work.
ESPCALLY if theyre soldered in!
have u counted the pins for each one. or thought that the ecus are designed as one device? not to be modifed. espcally the cpu.

or is this a clock genorator ur looking at? usually if the speed(MHz) is adjustable(just about any mobo for the last 10 years) the clock speed is not controlled by the cpu its self. mobo's control this(via clock gens.).
i dont see how it could affect the engine, since the cams wont let it back fire through the intake, and spark isnt controlled by the ecu(to an extent). sure. try it. good luck?
END RANT

[BillyM]

*shakes head*

*holds back*

--BillyM

[Dangerous Ken]

*shakes head*

*holds back*

--BillyM

*how come there is no 'kill file' on this board*

Ken

[batmobile]

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[MWebber]

*holds back*

*helps*

[MWebber]

Ok, well I will all laugh at you when I pass you with my 5m

not to sound cruel, but does someone have a flat tire we don't know about?

if you're so bent on soldering on ECUs, why not get the megasquirt?

Mike

[batmobile]

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[SupraWes]

. Why did toy change the tps??

The ols square TPS is really only a 3 position switch, Idle, midrange, and WOT. The newer Round type TPS is a linear resistor, so the ECU sees axactly how much the throttle is open and can be a little more accurate

[StanS]

I know all that. But why? (what does the ecu do with the additional info?)

[Donn29]

theres a few 5M-E's that are standalone, hemiyoda, i can remember is is(was) stock pretty much. Calls it a "regular 5M-GE burner", now dont quote me though. leave it up to him to poke in

[Hemiyoda]

theres a few 5M-E's that are standalone, hemiyoda, i can remember is is(was) stock pretty much. Calls it a "regular 5M-GE burner", now dont quote me though. leave it up to him to poke in

Hehe well it goes pretty good for being an almost stock 5M-E. No major improvement with the megasquirt over stock.

My response to this is the same that already has been given earlier in this thread: You can't soup up NA cars with ecu processor speed mods only. The "low" speed ecu in your cars can perfectly keep up with the engine as it is. (and much more)

Some real work for the engine is needed, cam(s), more comp, porting, supercharging (in any form) etc etc etc.
And after that, programmable engine management, programmable being the keyword. 8mhz or 100mhz doesn't matter, especially if we are talking about the stock ecu. 8-)

[batmobile]

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[solid693]

while we are on the subject of ECU'S is there an upgraded ecu for our cars? just plug it in to raise the limiter and other things? or is this another venture that i should not continue, due to a small performance entusiast following for our cars!!!!! sorry im just mad i can go somewhere and just tell them what car i have and buy a part. oh and my 84 has a knock sensor so... i have an 85?

[85 rat rod]

if it has a knock sensor, and the tps, your an 85, your door tag just states when the car was made, not which model year it falls under
when i was sold my 85, i was told it was an 84, it was made in november of 84 and my dmv paperwork states that it was first sold in 1984, but it is an 85 model year (giveaways are, avatar-spoiler/sunshade combo, stock alarm, knock sensor, and round, liner type throttle position sensor) and the only available ecu upgrade is most likely a standalone.

Btw your sig says something about a 70 vw, id like to hear alittle about that, i do alot of upgrade work on a friends late model 66, and im trying to get my hands on an early model bad, but my funding hasent quite hit the price range yet.

(reply to thread hijack complete)

[Norbie]

I have decided that im going to build my own ECU, so that way I can do all the mods I want, and get rid of some unnecessary circuits like a/c, etc.

I wont be using the megasquirt.

Im going to be using microcontrollers tied into one another to relay information. One for the AFM + air temp, One for the injectors, one for the ignition, one for the RPM, one for the tps, one for the knock sensor, ox sensor, water temp sensor, and then a larger unit to control all the sub units. I will be using BS2 micro controllers for the sub units, and a larger SX chip to control the BS2 controllers. I will be able to tune each microcontroller being able to adjust very small increments. Basically a standalone unit, using the parallax software. I will be able to write my own programs that run the circuit boards that I make.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/norbee/bushtu.jpg

[solid693]

well, rat rod. im actually selling the bug. pm me

[batmobile]

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[BillyM]

...yea, I'm with norbie.

You talk, thats it. (Feel free to prove me wrong.)

--BillyM

[Donn29]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/norbee/bushtu.jpg
im with norbie! on with the flames......
LO Fricken L

[dogstar]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/norbee/bushtu.jpg


BEST POST EVAR!!!

dude, im gonna try really hard to be nice, but um, dont be a tard.

save up some cash, get a megasquirt and build it.
once you can do that, and have a good handle on what you need to do, then you can try making your own ecu.

least then when you fuck it up, you can still claim you have a standalone that you "made" yourself.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Take a look at this.
http://www.racerjake.com/products.htm
http://www.supramania.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9146


Allan 8-)

[batmobile]

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[Ross]

Note they were changing the frequency by 10 or 15%, not the 100% Batmobile was proposing.

[Hemiyoda]

Having done some work with microcontrollers (Atmel AVR & PIC) I wonder what happens to injector pulsewidths etc when mucking around changing crystals.
If those functions have their own clock generator (asynchronous), no problem. But usually you run pretty much everything of the same clock.

Oh well, it seems to be working for the MR2 folks so I'll shut up now. :)

[lechner]

I believe on the supra, all that runs on the same clock. If you slow that clock, you will change the injector pulse etc. by the same percentage change as the RPM. If this change is small enough, or compensated for, you might be OK. Everything the computer times will change the same proportion, but combustion etc. occurs at speed governed by physics and the two will no longer be perfectly aligned. Car mods are about compromise, in this case you give up a little performance in one spot to gain in another. IMO this mod is only worthwhile to people road racing who often hit the rev limiter before the end of a straight. All it does is lets you avoid shifting up, then back down to enter the corner. If your motor is modified to make power at high revs, you should be running stand-alone by that point anyway.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Your welcome Batmobile :wink:

Allan 8-)

[Supra Bob]

Wow.

I really think I will never ever enter this thread again.....


.. who said a little bit of knowledge isn't dangerous?....