6MGE Dyno Numbers?

[MKIIBeater]

I have a few points and questions I'd like to clear up here and Im sure this is the place to do it 8)

I really would like to get some more power out of my MKII. I currently have a completely stock MKII, its got a 6MGE with a 5MGE intake manifold (did it for emissions reasons when I did the swap). I also have a AWD turbo talon that is quite fast, hint hint...I love turbo cars. Ive been reading to much lately about turbo'ing 5M/6M's and am just not sure if that is the way I want to go as reliability ranks supreme with me for this car (my DSM is the one I always have to worry about :evil: ). So I know going turbo is the best way to make power, but Id like to know what kind of numbers you guys get with basic bolt ons. I havent really priced any parts out yet for the motor but I would assume that a nice intake, header, exhaust and TB or something would cost just about as much as a DIY ct-26 turbo settup right?

I am curious as to about how much power ( I assume about 160-170RWHP) a stock 6MGE you guys think would put down. Now I know that those aformentioned boltons wouldnt get me near the 200whp mark am I correct? Id prolly hae to be looking into cams, gears, headwork and maybe even a compression bump right? So what kind of numbers are you guys actually happy with power wise? What kind of numbers have you- with 1) stock 6M's 2)N/A bolt on 6M's 3) ct-26 BPU 6M's- put down on the dyno? This will all help me decide which route Im going to go. I want turbo but do not want HG problems (dont really want to have to ever take the head off again, even to put in a MHG), so if the N/A way is about as much but will be more reliable (to get ~200whp) than I guess Ill steer towards that route. Sorry for being so long but any insight will be much abliged. Thanks!

Austin

[Muchbzy]

Depending on your power requirments you can turbo a 6M and get about 210 or so at the wheels. That would be running mild boost levels and shouldn't hurt the reliability factor at all. But as you know the more money you spend the more you get. :wink:

[Dave A.]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 6MGE in stock form rated at 190 HP at the flywheel? Hmmm....... 7 psi of intercooled boost pressure on a stock, later year, higher compression 5MGE can bump up the horsepower output from 160 HP to 230 HP at the flywheel (yielding a 70 HP increase) so that leads me to think that being able to tweak a NA 6MGE without doing any internal mods. to produce a reliable horsepower output of 200 HP or more could be done without adding forced induction. But maybe I'm wrong!! Any other thoughts on this?? :idea:

[BillyM]

Vern has done this, 225rw-ftlb. He had some good head work done and I'm pretty sure he ran an intake and exhaust. You might want to give him a yell sometime if you want something similar.

--BillyM

[Supra Bob]

From what I've seen 210 for a 7 PSI 6M seems kinda low. I know Eric wazs running at 9 PSI with his 6M and he was turning Mid-12 second runs... which to me would say that it would be closer 300 than 200... I can't see 2 PSI netting 70 some odd HP less...

[MKIIBeater]

Well another reason why I was interested in turbo is I really would like a little more power from about 4k-6k...

Im sure that 200flywheel horsepower with boltons is very easy to accomplish considering they do make 190 stock. I am really looking for about 220-240RWHP which is quite a bit different from flywheel horsepower. These cars are fun and I figure with a reliable 220+whp that this would just be one bad ass machine IMO :twisted:

Hey SupraBob, what kind of numbers do YOU think stock 6M blocks can hold? Remember I am really serious abotu doing this, I have about 1k Id like to spend on the car. I think that with another grand I could get 230whp with a ct-26 eh? Im not sure what the giving point is on the motors, whether its the pistons, rods or HG which will likely fail first. Do you think if I retorque the head studs again that a MHG won't be needed?

[pdupler]

The weak point isn't going to be anything internal to the motor, but rather the stock fuel and ignition system. As long as you can keep the mixture and timing under control to prevent detonation, the pistons, rods and headgasket will be fine. Its that one errant ping while boosting that busts a ring land or blows a headgasket. As you raise boost, that risk increases and of course the rrfpr and btm devices are not ideal devices for tuning so your decision should be based mostly on the amount of risk you are willing to tolerate. Since the headgasket usually goes first (no amount of torque is going to save a stock headgasked from detonation) many upgrade to the metal headgasket just as a precautionary measure - a relatively cheap $125 insurance policy. 220rwhp should be reasonably accomplished on a 6m with stock ct26. You'll find tho that torque is increased dramatically in the 2500 to 4000 range which makes for an amazingly driveable mk2 regardless the peak. This really is the engine Toyota should have put in the mk2 to begin with but of course with a properly programmed ECU driving appropriately sized injectors. I repeat again tho what I've said a million times, don't go out and buy a 6m with the intention of turbocharging it because it'll cost as much as a 7m-gte by the time you're done, but if you already have a 6m and want to turbo, then the principle of sunk cost applies and you should go for it.

Phil D.

[Supra Bob]

I think Phil hit it right on the head. The weakest part of the 5M and 6M's are the 5M Computer. Its just not setup for boost. There are piggyback add-ons that you can use to accomidate for the boost, but in reality, they are never as good as a computer that is flat out designed for the boost...

Now, that being said, I feel that a properly set-up and tuned 6M can be as reliable with a turbo as without. Again, as Phil said, fuel and timing management are the key abilities that you need to focus on.

For the fuel, if your looking to keep the boost low (5 to 7 psi), then I would say an RRFPR could accomidate you. However, IMO, once you start to exceed this, the fuel pressure in the rail, going thru the injectors and the demands on the Fuel pump begin to really exceed anything even remotely safe... I'm really not a fan of the RRFPR route to be honest... just seems like putting a bandaid on something that needs a tournoquet. Some kind of S-AFC or similar product is about one of the most balanced routes (balanced between cost, tuning ability, instalation difficulty and availablity) you can take.

So far as spending a $1000 for a turbo conversion... its possible if you are very frugal, are patient enough to wait for the occasional good deal to come along, and do ALOT of research into parts. Really though, being cheap when your doing a turbo is NOT the way to go. You might be able to cut a corner here or there, but in the long run, every dollar you save will end up most likely costing you 3.

[MKIIBeater]

OK ok ok :oops: So from what I am gathering here it would prolly just be better to swap in a 7M right? The sunk cost is there you are correct but keep in mind guys reliability is what I want most of all here. I can imagine a 7M swap woudl make for a nice daily driver and a few bolt ons and a couple more pounds of boost would be really fun and I wouldnt really have to worry about breaking anything. However what do you tihkn the cost of a proper 7M swap woudl be?

Complete 7MGTE longlbock (where do you guys go for these motors)
New clutch (stock or aftermarket?)
FLuids, plugs, misc crap
7MGTE ecu

If I went this route I figure Id be willing to spend about 2k on everything. If you guys think that its honestly beter to go this route then I may as well do it. I mean i could also get a few hundred for the 6M motor that I have considering its sound, has perfect compression, new T belt, WP and seals everywhere right?

[Supra Bob]

Beater...

Don't think we are trying to discourage you from going 6M-GTE... we're just trying to make sure you understand what your getting in for. Neither route is without problems or obstacles. If 6M-GTE is the route you desire, then by all means, we'll help ya get there the safest, cheapest, and most proven way we collectively know how!

[SilverMk2]

If you are only willing to spend $2g on a 7M, I would just forget this idea. The only way this would happen is if you got a really good price on all the engine parts. Generally speaking the $500-1000 Mk3 parts cars are basically crap, so if you just thru in a used Mk3 motor from one of these cars the reliability is goining to suck and just become a money pit. If you figure in a decent rebuild costs are going to skyrocket. You never know you could get lucky on this. You could walk into Pick'n'pull one day and find a Mk3 with 20k miles on it and snag everything for 200 bucks (fat chance).

I would just turbo what you've got and tune it well. It should be pretty damn reliable if you do it right and have a solid motor to start with. I would forget the NA mods. They are a waste of money unless you have some great reason to stay NA. I built the 6M in my car with the best of everything no money spared and ended up with a paltry 171 rwhp. I think it works out to about 50 bucks a hp. Its no small wonder I feel like donating my MkII to a monster truck rally sometimes. Don't repeat my mistake go turbo something :wink:

[MKIIBeater]

COol then I guess I will stick with the 6M. At the local salvage yard here the forman says he will sell me the MK3 turbo, manifold and lines and intercooler for 300$. I immediately went over and scoped everything out. The ct26 has a very small amount of vertical shaft play (up and down) and NO horizontal play, which I would assume that its fine. I heard the car running and it sounded just fine. I coudl prolly get the entire car for about 1400$ but it does have about 160k on it so I dont know. Maybe turboing mine is the better way to go , comsidering I woudl prolly have to spend about 3k to get a nice 7M turbo settup.

The only other thing is that I have been reading so many posts on here about what parts to get for the turbo BPU. I am curious as to vendors though, and namely places that people have had good luck with. I figure these are the only parts I really need/want to get:

RRFPR (what rate if I use 210cc injectors?)
4AGE 210cc injectors (do I need the clips/wires with them?)
walbro 190lph FP
Intake pipe for the turbo (people say go with the HKS MegaFlow...)
Custom oil/coolant lines to/from the turbo
Custom (or is there somewhere that sells a 3") exhaust from turbo back
Colder NGK plugs, misc fluids, new wires (what kind do you guys use)
Misc...stuff I run into along the way that needs fixing/replacing/upgrading

I figure i could do it all for abotu 1200$ eh? ANyhow I really appreciate your input on this topic guys (bob, silver :wink: ). I think this is the route I am going to go so now I just need to find all the parts for everything. If there is something that I left out or you feel/or know of something that a company makes or is better, by all means shoot. THanks again, Semper Fi


Austin

[82Spearco]

210 cc injectors are plug and play, just change the o-rings.

Might as well go with the Walbro 255 if you are going to spend the money on a new fuel pump, don't think there is much of a price difference. There were some of these on Ebay recently for under $100. If you want a quiet fuel pump, then go with the Bosche/Porsche unit that Phil Dupler is running.

As far as intake, I would recommend rigging up some type of cold air intake. Check out some of the things that have been done and are currently being worked on by Aaron Garney, Dean Anderson, and Stan Sherman. you may need to check the Yahoo Groups List to get the stuff that Stan put together. Both Dean and Aaron have nice websites.

Check with Aaron (www.rabidchimp.com) for the custom oil lines.

Aaron is working on a 3" downpipe for the ct-26 for the mk2. Jim King is also working on a mandrel-bent 3" cat-back exhaust.

Taylor makes some nice 8mm wires.

1 Step colder Plugs, NGK V-Power BPR6EY-11

You may also want to look at the MSD 6A. Not real familiar with this, but several other peeps are.

[MKIIBeater]

Ok guys UPDATE!!
I just got back from teh toyota salvage yard and scored pretty good. I got a pretty good shape CT-26, exhaust manifold, all the lines to and from the turbo, the water elbow from the thermo housing, all gaskets (which I prolly wont use except the turbine housing gasket), the interooler piping from the turbo to the intercooler and (4) injectors from a 87 Corolla or Celica (cant remember :o ) GTS that had a 4AGE in it. It was a FWD (must have been a corolla now that I think about it) and the injectors are silver (unless the coloring wore off of them... :?: ) I also got the clips for them as well. Im not even sure if these are the right ones but i remember someone saying that we need them from a 4AGE so thats what I got. ANyhow I got them all of these parts for $270 out the door :shock: So Im pretty happy and it looks like I may be on the way to a nice cheap budget 6MGTE 8)

EDIT: If anyone can tell me if the injectors are the right ones that woudl be cool...

[SupraFiend]

celicas never came with 4age's so if it was an 87 rolla gts then they should be right, buuuut you said it was fwd? You sure about that? They didn't make fwd GTS's in 87, they went fwd in 88, though those were probably manufactured in 87 if all you did was check the door panel. The fwd GTS's come with different 4age's with different engine management, I'm not sure if the injectors are the same or not. I can find out if need be, or just head over to club4age (www.club4age.com) and find out for yourself.

[SilverMk2]

The plastic clip part should be a light blue color on the 210 injectors. I can send you a photo of the 210 injector next to the stock 182 injector if you want to color match to them.

[MKIIBeater]

Well I actually found out that the injectors are from an 88 FWD TVIS corolla aka an AE92. The injectors themselves are dark gray in color which with some investigation measn they are the same 182cc as the 5MGE which really sucks. However I do not knwo what color the clips were, so if tht is what you are supposed to go by thenb i may be in luck. However the info I found on the net says that they can only be one of 2 injectors sizes...182cc or 235cc I think these are the only ones that came in teh early model AE92 4AGE corollas (88-90). Anyhow I will try and post some pics of them. Ive tried searching by the part number but cannot find anything. So if you guys could post some pics that would be great, thanks

Austin

[pdupler]

If the 4age injectors you got were replaced at some point, they may not be blue. I bought six new ones for an 85 mr2 at Autozone, GP Sorensen brand, and they are black. IIRC, all the 4age were the same 210cc through July 86 build date so I'd go with year/model of car they came from over color.

I also highly recommend you get a boost retard unit as my 6m-gte will ping without some spark retard. I don't particularly like the MSD units just because I've had trouble with mine but they are the cheapest at about $160 for the BTM alone. The Crane ignitions look to be the superior. Mallory and Holley also make boost retard ignitions tho all three are over $300.

I'd stick with the Walbro in-tank pump. My Bosche external unit is not particularly quiet either and the in-tank design is the more reliable.

Sounds like you are on your way. Keep us posted on the progress.

Phil D.

[MKIIBeater]

Well now thatI think about it th emore I think they are 182cc injectors which sucks. They are gray and they have white clips. I looked inside the corolla to see how many miles it had on it and it had about 210xxx miles on it so they just may have been replaced somewhere along the way. ANyhow I still only have 4 and if they werent replaced i cannot imagine them to work good even after being cleaned and balanced.

How much were the 210cc's you got at autozone? What is the problem with your MSD (ive heard a lot of bad stories about them crapping out before)? The body style was definetly 88+ it said 87 on the car but the guys are silly there, they told me I need new pistons if I get bigger injectors (cause of the turbo I got =)) Anyhow I will keep this post as the official project update (unthess told otherwise by a moderator). tHANKS FOR EVERYONES HELP,

[82Spearco]

Post a Wanted ad in this site for the 210cc injectors, someone should respond. You should be able to get a set of 6 with shipping for less than $100.

[85TurboMKII]

From what I've seen 210 for a 7 PSI 6M seems kinda low. I know Eric wazs running at 9 PSI with his 6M and he was turning Mid-12 second runs... which to me would say that it would be closer 300 than 200... I can't see 2 PSI netting 70 some odd HP less...


I am running 6M with ct-26 at 9psi, 295 injectors, S-AFC, tuned on a dyno, rrfpr and I put down 233hp/265 torque at the wheels with a crappy 2.5" crush bent downpipe and stock elbow on the back as well as all stock 7M-GTE intercooler piping and intercooler. currently my best run was 13.3@102 with a 2.2 60ft time.

Eric
6M-GTE

[85TurboMKII]

well hopefully within 2 months I"ll be able to give you an idea on how much boost the 6M can hold. I have to finish getting money together so I can get all teh stuff I need an pay for the dyno time but I am planning on cranking it up to 14 or 15 psi with all stock stuff except fuel tuning I'll let everyone know if it blows the HG or not

Eric
6M-GTE


Im sure that 200flywheel horsepower with boltons is very easy to accomplish considering they do make 190 stock. I am really looking for about 220-240RWHP which is quite a bit different from flywheel horsepower. These cars are fun and I figure with a reliable 220+whp that this would just be one bad ass machine IMO :twisted:

Hey SupraBob, what kind of numbers do YOU think stock 6M blocks can hold? Remember I am really serious abotu doing this, I have about 1k Id like to spend on the car. I think that with another grand I could get 230whp with a ct-26 eh? Im not sure what the giving point is on the motors, whether its the pistons, rods or HG which will likely fail first. Do you think if I retorque the head studs again that a MHG won't be needed?[/quote]

[85TurboMKII]

you are going to want an S-AFC for tuning ability. trust me I ran into the same problem. without it you have no fuel tuning ability and well I gained 20hp and 20torque at the wheels by doing fuel tuning. not only that but I am not going to blow up my motor. not a good idea and it hasn't yet I've had the turbo on it for over a year now and for about 6 months it's been at 9psi no problems yet except for broken LSD (damn drag strip) but for daily driving and everything else it's been great. I'll never break anything if I stay away from the drag strip :)

Eric
6M-GTE



COol then I guess I will stick with the 6M. At the local salvage yard here the forman says he will sell me the MK3 turbo, manifold and lines and intercooler for 300$. I immediately went over and scoped everything out. The ct26 has a very small amount of vertical shaft play (up and down) and NO horizontal play, which I would assume that its fine. I heard the car running and it sounded just fine. I coudl prolly get the entire car for about 1400$ but it does have about 160k on it so I dont know. Maybe turboing mine is the better way to go , comsidering I woudl prolly have to spend about 3k to get a nice 7M turbo settup.

The only other thing is that I have been reading so many posts on here about what parts to get for the turbo BPU. I am curious as to vendors though, and namely places that people have had good luck with. I figure these are the only parts I really need/want to get:

RRFPR (what rate if I use 210cc injectors?)
4AGE 210cc injectors (do I need the clips/wires with them?)
walbro 190lph FP
Intake pipe for the turbo (people say go with the HKS MegaFlow...)
Custom oil/coolant lines to/from the turbo
Custom (or is there somewhere that sells a 3") exhaust from turbo back
Colder NGK plugs, misc fluids, new wires (what kind do you guys use)
Misc...stuff I run into along the way that needs fixing/replacing/upgrading

I figure i could do it all for abotu 1200$ eh? ANyhow I really appreciate your input on this topic guys (bob, silver :wink: ). I think this is the route I am going to go so now I just need to find all the parts for everything. If there is something that I left out or you feel/or know of something that a company makes or is better, by all means shoot. THanks again, Semper Fi


Austin

[85TurboMKII]

set the timing at 10 degrees (stock) and no pinging to be found. also you have to run high octaine gas I run 93 in mine.

Eric
6M-GTE



If the 4age injectors you got were replaced at some point, they may not be blue. I bought six new ones for an 85 mr2 at Autozone, GP Sorensen brand, and they are black. IIRC, all the 4age were the same 210cc through July 86 build date so I'd go with year/model of car they came from over color.

I also highly recommend you get a boost retard unit as my 6m-gte will ping without some spark retard. I don't particularly like the MSD units just because I've had trouble with mine but they are the cheapest at about $160 for the BTM alone. The Crane ignitions look to be the superior. Mallory and Holley also make boost retard ignitions tho all three are over $300.

I'd stick with the Walbro in-tank pump. My Bosche external unit is not particularly quiet either and the in-tank design is the more reliable.

Sounds like you are on your way. Keep us posted on the progress.

Phil D.

[MKIIBeater]

Wow this is all great info you are laying on me, I appreciate it.
So you think going with some 295's and still a rising rate regulator should be adequate for my goals?

What kind of volvo intercooler are you going with? Do you feel the MK3 isnt very efficient? Ive been either thinking of going with a MK4 sidemount or just throw down some cash and get a little FMIC from somewhere.

How was the afc install on the car...hard? how is yoru low driveability everyday, and what types of a/f ratios were you seeing on the dyno with 9psi and 93 octane? Is the a/f curve nice and linear (the afc do a nice job of being smooth?)? Thanks a bunch :D

Austin

[Suprasman01]

might have been an 88-newr Rolla
87 gts still AE86 -----> correct wheel drive
88- newr AE92 -----> are the pullers (front wheel)
FYI

[85TurboMKII]

I dunno william gave it to me for christmas. it's got a 2.5 in and out and yes I am using the AFC and an RRFPR just as a safe zone the AFC does a good job at keeping the fuel curve linear...it's all in the tuning I tuned mine at 12:1 for a saftey net just incase of boost spikes.




Wow this is all great info you are laying on me, I appreciate it.
So you think going with some 295's and still a rising rate regulator should be adequate for my goals?

What kind of volvo intercooler are you going with? Do you feel the MK3 isnt very efficient? Ive been either thinking of going with a MK4 sidemount or just throw down some cash and get a little FMIC from somewhere.

How was the afc install on the car...hard? how is yoru low driveability everyday, and what types of a/f ratios were you seeing on the dyno with 9psi and 93 octane? Is the a/f curve nice and linear (the afc do a nice job of being smooth?)? Thanks a bunch :D

Austin

[MKIIBeater]

Well project update if anyone cares :lol:

I just ordered my Rabid Chimp=downpipe, oil and coolant (new) line kit, and cartech RRFPR. Aaron was very helpful in answering all my questions and his prices are very fair IMO. The ct-26 is currently getting rebuilt and the 295cc injectors and afc are on there way. I will try and take pics of everything when it all gets here, and even do another little write up I guess.