AC Retrofit Kit Poll

[jdk_ii]

Per questions/requests, I'm thinking it may be practical to design
the Mr. Frosty project in various pieces.
This only addresses the engine compartment.

Condensor Kit - this would be a replacement condensor.
It's a parallel flow condensor that will provide significantly improved efficiency (important for R134a).
New hard lines for integrating into the existing system and for the Compressor Kit.
It would use a readily available receiver/drier (not included).
Ballpark price: $150

Compressor/Hose Kit This would be for replacing the compressor with a new Seltec or Unicla.
Adapter plate for the compressor, and new replacement engine compartment soft hoses.
All you would need to do is buy the compressor with repsective pulley/clutch.
Ballpark price: $150.

Complete Retrofit Kit the two kits above.
Ballpark $300.

The Everything Kit Complete retrofit kit, receiver/drier, compressor, clutch, pulley, belt.
All you supply is the labor and R134a charge. I'm going to guess this at $600.
Depends if distributor pricing can be obtained. And if that silly EPR valve can be retrofit.

[ma615mgte]

and your offering these for a 134a conversion.. or supplying hard to find parts?

[jdk_ii]

Ideally, it's for R134a. Easier accessibility.

Many parts are off the shelf.

Some parts require fabrication so it makes it like butter to install.


and your offering these for a 134a conversion.. or supplying hard to find parts?

[Daves2JZGTE]

id be inersted but i have to see or get demention to see if it would fit behined my IC.

Dave

[jdk_ii]

id be inersted but i have to see or get demention to see if it would fit behined my IC.

Dave

Can anything fit behind your IC?! ;-)

You'll probably need to relocate the drier (at least).

And you will need space for an AC fan (slimline variety).

[ren0]

hey jim. give us a good heads up or an estimate of when you are going to set something like this up as i would need to start saving now.

-greg

[Racefiend]

I just went with an r12a retrofit. No parts needed. Direct replacement. Works well, and suupposedly better than r134a too!

[jdk_ii]

We're trying to get things lined up for the test mule (my MK2) by mid-August.

Would be nice sooner!

[jdk_ii]

I just went with an r12a retrofit. No parts needed. Direct replacement. Works well, and suupposedly better than r134a too!

Some have had good results with R12 substitutes.

Practical for the DIY person with MVAC experience/tools, and a known good R12 system.

Do note that some alternates are considered illegal for use in R12 systems by the US EPA.

[rsdeo]

My a/c works fine, I had it converted over to r134a after I pulled it out of storage (it was in storage for nine years in a dry garage) four years ago. While in storage for those years I would start the car and run it with the a/c on.

When I finally pulled the car from storage the a/c just blew out room temprature air. I had it checked by a friend of a friend at his shop and the results were good. The system still had pressure, it had just slowely leaked (which does happen over long periods of time on all auto a/c systems). The system was emptied, dried, new seals installed, dried again and the system was filled with new r134a. It took close to five hours to do all this, I watched as they did the work. A/c works great now.

I would be interested in a complete kit with no clutch installed on the compressor. Instead three clutches ready for fit. One for a 5M and the the other two for a 7M.

[jdk_ii]

A few updates.

After researching many compressor configurations, the easiest route
is to take the existing 5/7M AC bracket and have it modified. A bolt-on adapter
plate is not practical.

The intended compressor is either a Seltec or Sanden direct mount.
They have the same mounting configuration as the stock NipponDenso.
Just the pulley offsets are off by 1/4" :rolleyes: (reason for modified stock bracket).

The compressor averages about $230 (new). These are common as dirt.
They are commonly used in truck and farm equipment.
Known for much better reliability. Sure beats $250 for a rebuilt NipponDenso.

The setup will likely have a mix of standard and metric fittings. Metric
when it connects to a non-replaced Toyota connections (evaporator, EPR valve).
AC standard to metric adapters are silly money.

The hoses fittings will be mfg with a Weathersfield crimper. Suprasport has one of these. :hsugh:

I should be starting my conversion in the next few weeks. Could have really used
it this week in tropical Boston.

[Jose H. 3]

Any idea if there is a possibilty of reduced prices if enough people buy these kits? I voted for the everything kit, but if prices are good enough I may have to save up some extra and go for two kits... Thanks

[jdk_ii]

Any idea if there is a possibilty of reduced prices if enough people buy these kits? I voted for the everything kit, but if prices are good enough I may have to save up some extra and go for two kits... Thanks

The manufacturers/distributors won't budge unless one orders a pallet.
Usually, this is quantity 50/pallet.

For the first buy, I'm pushing for the pioneer discount. Which means
the supplier chain gives up some profit to help build a market with
the early adopters.

Rather reverse than what normally happens with customized products.

After that, it is a matter of inventory costs, economies of scale, etc.

[jdk_ii]

Snaps up to Toyota.

They used standard (not metric) AC compression fittings.

:badger:

[Funkycheeze]

would this kit work on a 7m swapped supra as a bolt on like it does for the 5m?

you mentioned the '5m/7m AC bracket' so i am thinking thats a yes


just in case i cant bear having no AC in my car next year

[jdk_ii]

would this kit work on a 7m swapped supra as a bolt on like it does for the 5m?

you mentioned the '5m/7m AC bracket' so i am thinking thats a yes


just in case i cant bear having no AC in my car next year

Yes. The intention is to have the same bracket fit either a 5M or 7M.
Ideally just turn it 180 degrees to fit the specific engine.

The only thing that will probably be required is a slightly longer AC belt.

[Funkycheeze]

ok, good - i'm sure i can figure that part out

my main reason for ditching the AC on my car was the difficulty of modifying the 5m system to use the 7m compressor/dorking around with the 5m compressor to fit the 7m, and the fact that the whole system was falling apart anyways

the only part that is left in the car is the evap core behind the dash, which as i understand it, is the only part (other than off the shelf stuff) you are not including in the full kit

[jdk_ii]

I only want to design one bracket, hence save costs.
And saves the problem of grafting the 7M compressor to the 5M system. :)

Plus you get new "clean" lines to rebuild your system.
If you have pulled apart a existing MK2 AC system, they can be quite crusty on the inside. :ugh:

The only parts used from the MK2 are:


Evaporator and valve(I have a source for new, lower priced units)
EPR: Evaporator Pressure Relief valve (near right shock tower)
Temp sensor near condenser
Some existing wire integration


The only things that will need to be tuned:

High / low pressure (standard issue AC stuff)
AC amplifier may need adjustment (it's adjustable)
The EPR may need some adjustment.


If the information I got today works out, the system will also have
the ability to integrate a low/high pressure emergency valve.
Basically shuts off the AC system to prevent compressor damage.

[Funkycheeze]

yah all the wiring and stuff i left in there, including the temp sensor (mounted it to the PS cooler)

but the EPR and all the lines up to the firewall was toast, i sure hope you find a source for new ones

[jdk_ii]

yah all the wiring and stuff i left in there, including the temp sensor (mounted it to the PS cooler)

but the EPR and all the lines up to the firewall was toast, i sure hope you find a source for new ones

Lines are no problem. :D

You will want to find an EPR. As long as it's not siezed or scored,
and the boot is ok, all it should require is o-ring replacement.

It's a backend pressure regulator. Fortunately for us, its adjustable.

It's also used in non-automotive AC systems, so there may a retrofit, somewhere...

[jdk_ii]

Frosty Toyz...

New compressor. Note the Denso mounting arrangement.

The front grooves are actually aligned, just the pic doesn't show it.
Hence a simple adapter bracket needs to be made.

It does have 8 grooves. Only 4 will be used. They did have some 4 groove pulleys, but discontinued a few years ago.

The V-pulley version (for 5M) has 2 V-grooves.

Weight feels the same, but very centered (as the ND requires a screw driver to balance it).
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/compressor01.jpg


Suction and Discharge lines are on the back. This makes creating new hose lines easier.
And probably installing easier. :)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/compressor02.jpg


4 Pass Parallel Flow aluminum condenser.
There are twice as many tubes than the stock condenser.
It's definitely lighter than the stock unit.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/condenser.jpg

[Phil G.]

Noiyce! :ss_bling:

Looks like some heavy duty stuff there.

Now all we need is a blower motor that can actually blow.... :badger:

[Eric]

I don't read this section very often so I didn't vote, but I'd be really interested in a full kit if you get it all worked out. Please keep us all posted. Thanks,

Eric

[KesekiSupra]

would love to get the condensor (flows r-134a easier than the stock one shuld right?) since i already have a brand new compressor waiting for installation =\

[SupraDude117]

I'm very interested in this kit! I'll want one for Agatha (7MGTE) and one for Kali (6MGE) Looking good so far!

-Dave

[SlickDizzy]

I'm very interested in one of these too. The Supra is a sports GT, and as such it deserves some aircon.

[mkii_supra_freak]

Count me in! Long hot SC summer days getting to me.

[Racefiend]

Hmmm...I maybe down for this. My mk2 has a brand new compressor, but now the comp in the mk3 took a dump, so it would be cool to get this and just swap from the mk2 to 3.

As far as the condesnser goes, how will it be mounted? Will it sandwich into the stock steel end brackets (like the stock one does) or will custom brackets be made?

[Daves2JZGTE]

whats the dementions of the aluminum condenser

if i can get it to fit with my IC im IN

Dave

[jdk_ii]

[snip-o-matic]
As far as the condesnser goes, how will it be mounted? Will it sandwich into the stock steel end brackets (like the stock one does) or will custom brackets be made?
Some small brackets need to be made so they mount to the existing MK2 mount holes.

They will be included, plus some standard issue rubber vibration insulators.

I have to arrange for the condenser to have alternate inlet/outlet fittings.
The mfg is going to attempt to help with these, otherwise I have to get
them braised in locally.

Longer term, there is plans for a MK3 version. But as usually, MK2's are first priority. :D

[jdk_ii]

whats the dementions of the aluminum condenser

if i can get it to fit with my IC im IN

Dave
12 x 26 x .80.

Add 2.5 for the condenser fan.

I'm going to design it so it keeps the condenser as close
to the radiator as possible, to retain some flexiblity of intercoolers.

The receiver/drier may be a problem for some, so it may require either
relocation or getting one of the inline variety.

[Racefiend]

Actually those fittings on there now would work great IMO if you mounted it with the ports pointed down.

and the core thickness is not much bigger than the stocker. Plus theres about 1.5" clearance between it and the rad, so I wouldn't see a problem keeping the drier in the same spot

The only thing I see as a potential problem is the ports on the condensor being angled out the sides. At 26" it's already going to be a tight squeeze between the headlight motors. Then you have to somehow try and fandangle a line to go throught the hole going towards the compressor. Looks like a PITA.

[jdk_ii]

Actually those fittings on there now would work great IMO if you mounted it with the ports pointed down.

and the core thickness is not much bigger than the stocker. Plus theres about 1.5" clearance between it and the rad, so I wouldn't see a problem keeping the drier in the same spot

The only thing I see as a potential problem is the ports on the condensor being angled out the sides. At 26" it's already going to be a tight squeeze between the headlight motors. Then you have to somehow try and fandangle a line to go throught the hole going towards the compressor. Looks like a PITA.
The condenser comes in 2 - 12" sizes. 22" or 26." No 24".
It would require a custom mfg order. The said maybe April of 2006. :rolleyes:

I did a drop down visual inspection with the headlight motors (my concern also).
The condenser will fit, although tight. The side mounts are 1/2" wide and will
very likely be trimmed for easier install.

The pre-installed ports are a problem. That's why 90 degree fittings are required
to replace them. The top one will point down to connect with the compressor hose.

[jdk_ii]

Update.

I created a prototype compressor bracket and installed the compressor
and prototype lines this morning.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/clutch.jpg
Looks reasonable stock.


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/top.jpg
Top view with bracket at top (black thing), and the reduced diameter barrier hose.
I'd like to use this smaller OD hose and it makes it cleaner install.
The ferrules are the wrong size, as they didn't have them in stock.
Final hoses will have the foam "rattle" covering.
Difficult to see, but the bracket has two sets of holes. One for the 7M, one
set for the 5M.


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/aligned.jpg
My first design protoype that lined up perfectly. :badger:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/nose.jpg
Alternate top view

[Phil G.]

Nice work :mm_emthup

Just in time for winter :zzzzz:

[SupraDude117]

Very nice :) Keep up the good work! And I'll only be in for one kit now. Kali is going to be for sale soon.

-Dave

[jdk_ii]

Nice work :mm_emthup

Just in time for winter :zzzzz:

Hehe, perfect for this time of year in the NorthEast. :)

No matter. I'm thinking a March 2006 time frame.

Gives some time for people to plan, and an ideal time
to get their AC working before any surprise hot summers like this year.

Plus that is a slow time for AC mfg/suppliers. I can't get on anyone's
schedule for custom lines, etc until late December. :rolleyes:

[Eric]

Sweetness, please keep us posted - I know you will - about the timeline and pricing and payment deadlines.

Eric

[Gage006]

Kali is going to be for sale soon.
-Dave
Clear corners over here *COUGH COUGH*

[jdk_ii]

Well, did some proto-fitting this morning (very rough).

The condenser is in, with a Spal fan.

Had to use some old lines to get an idea of end length so I can have them made properly (the less than straight lines at the bottem of the condenser).
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/clearance.jpg

Simply, the conversion reduces all that factory fan frame obstructuction.
I had this pressure line fabbed to connect to the condenser (next to zip tie).
It will be a real bent aluminum line, but this was cheaper (kind of).

Check out the JDM mount zip tie :badger:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/hipo-ziptie.jpg


The suction and pressure lines will not block the condenser.
Since I needed to test fit the drier, I just pulled the stock side brackets off the factory condener.
Which presented me with an idea of re-using them instead of making
custom brackets.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/jdm-extention.jpg
(note the JDM plywood extension!)

[jdk_ii]

A few interesting things as I proceed.

Condenser
The 14x24 condenser was a real tight fit. If it were .5 inches shorter, it
would have provided the clearance I would have preferred.

So, I went with a 12x22 for now. I extended it with the JDM plywood :)
to get a 12x24 size. This matches the factory size dimensions. It will be a custom
production, but I wanted the max size possible. Not a big price difference.

Mounting
Well, I used the generic brackets to get a test fit, plus the hi-perf zip tie.
After disassembling the factory condenser, I'm leaning towards using the side brackets to mount the new condenser.
All that would be needed is some tube spacers, and then cut and drill the old brackets to fit.
I'll still look at custom brackets, as long as the are reasonably priced.

The end result is much less crap in front of the condenser. This provides better
air flow (hence heat exchange). Combined with the parallel flow condenser,
this will be more than enough to provide heat exchange for near 32 degree
vent temps.

Source
The local place I'm getting some parts from (and hoses made) does truck A/C.
He also makes parts for Pantera R134 conversions (there's a Pantera resto place
up north from here).

The guy has been in the AC business since dirt. He's offered a few good suggestions.
Other than busting my nuts on the plywood extension, he said my current
config is the best way to do it and get nipply cold AC.

EPR valve
This simply is a valve that shuts off flow based on pressure. It prevents
the evaporator from freezing. But, it has a serious flaw. No flow, creates
an oil starvation problem for the compressor. Hence why NipponDesno's when
they fail, they are toast.

The better approach is to use a thermostatic switch at the evaporator core
and eliminate the EPR entirely. This cyles the compressor off to prevent the evaporator
from freezing. What's cool (ha!) is they are adjustable. This to tune the evaporator low temperature cut off.

Other stuff
Well, Toyota decided to be a pita by using a few metric fittings. :mofomad:
Simple fix, by making an adapter line at the evaporator pressure line (at firewall).

This AC shop offered to help tune the system. He may also be a source for
most of our parts needs.

The drier will have a trinary switch. This protects against low and high pressure
and also triggers the fan at a set pressure.

[SupraDude117]

Keep up the good work Jim! Let me know when I can buy one :cool:

-Dave

[skeen550]

This kit looks sweet

My current system needs some work as I have yet to get the custome made hoses for the 7m compressor.

I think I will wait for this kit as its money well spent, it get to darn hot in central texas to not have an efficient A/C.

Count me in on one of these !

BTW, do I get a special discount for donating the 5m compressor bracket :) hehe

Scott

[jdk_ii]

keep your fingers crossed.

tomorrow is the big day.

[jdk_ii]

Well, a long story of dealing with a local reccomended shop that turns
out the mechanic doing this is merely a tool, I've got project frosty working.

The owner knows his stuff, but he's now only doing the paperwork, no busted knuckes.

So, to test the system, I heat the inside up to tropical conditions.

Turn the condenser fan to full time ON. Cover the front nose to increase
ambient heat up front.

Get a warm wet rag and trick the outside temp sensor to think I'm in the amazon jungle.

Change to recirculate.

Fire up the AC and blast on the lowest temp setting.

The windows defog first (w00t!), then AC vents are blowing cooler
air than on fresh air with no AC.

Inspect the condenser inlet and outlet. Inlet is warm, outlet is cool. Yes, heat exchange :)

I open the evaporator inspection hole, and put my thumb over the hole.
Lower the blower speed and notice the temp is even lower from the high setting.
Very refrigerator like cool.

What does this mean? The match between the blower and heat exchange is off.
I recall this with the stock MK2 setup.

So, if I find a higher blow rate fan, the thermal exchange at the evaporator needs
to be more. Basically dropping the high pressure side temp. Couple ways to slice this.

And that stupid expensive Evaporator Pressure Regulator (EPR) is now gone. :D
Replaced with an adjustable thermal relay that will cycle the compressor when
the evaporator core gets below 32 degrees.

Yikes, what a project.

[SupraDude117]

Nice, when will we be able to order the set up?

-DJ

[jdk_ii]

Nice, when will we be able to order the set up?

-DJ
I have to contact the mfg of the condensers to get a quote on 12x24" size.

I'm hoping they can produce these as a stock item, otherwise it's a minimum 50 qty order. :-\

Then I'll post in the GB section in a few weeks so people can plan/save accordingly.

[jdk_ii]

group buy linkie (http://www.celicasupra.com/vbforums/showthread.php?p=204112#post204112)

[jdk_ii]

More test mule pictures.

This is the drier setup. Has a dual hi/lo presure switch.
Note the easy to access service port. :D
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/drier.jpg


The EPR replacement.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/epr.jpg

I made two piece lines near the passenger side to make it easier to install.
Fishing the factory lines out (and in) is somewhat a pita. So they are now two-piece.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/duallines.jpg

An ok pic of the condenser and lines
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/condenser2.jpg

Mind you, this is the test mule. The lines will be neater as the first
install was quite the jigsaw puzzle.

[zank]

any updates?

[jdk_ii]

any updates?

I'm waiting for the final quote on the hose assemblies. :rolleyes:

When they say the winter is not busy for the AC business, they mean it.

[jdk_ii]

I had one of the incorrect sized condensers anodized. (A boxed unit that listed the size based on the core, not over all. doughheads....)

The anodizing shop was nice enough to run it for $0. Had to wait when they were doing something of similar size.

At the 5 foot mark, it looks good.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/anodized.jpg

Upon closer inspection, they indicated flux does not anodize. :sadsmilie
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/flux.jpg

The fins turned out very nice.

The flux problem is since these units get put through a large oven (football field long), there is some flux splatter.

It can be cleaned up, but will still exist at the seams.

The quote price is $28, anodized as-is. The time to get the fins
cleaned from the two baths was straight labor.

$50 if they clean the flux doo-doo and hand paint the seams.

Obviously, I'm on the fench with this.

Anodizing the fins is a good idea to prevent aluminum oxidation. At $28, and left to the owner to touch up the end tanks (spray can), that might work.

But $50 for completed/nice units, I doubt anyone would go for it.

The only reason I considered doing this was for looks and longevity.
In time, bugs and rocks will chip the anodizing. And it would be easy to touch up
the front surface (for you garage queen MK2 owners).

I'm checking with the condenser mfg to see if they can somehow prevent the flux splatter.

They also know of a place that does this special kind of dry film paint.
Comes in a roll, laid over the condenser, and heated on. Thinner layer, and more
durable than spray paint.

And I obtained a MK2 donor-mobile for test fitting the end kit. The hoses are
a bit of a jig-saw puzzle for fitment. All but two will be made during the first
production run, then I have to get the last two properly configured and have those made.

[jdk_ii]

Group Buy pricing and details updated.

I'm going to need a vacation after this....

[jdk_ii]

This is your evaporator

120K mileage donor
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/evap1.jpg

Inlet side facing the blower motor
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/evap2.jpg

Free gift
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/evap3.jpg

A little shaking....
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/evap4.jpg

The conveniently located pressure switch. My conversion has this now in the engine compartment.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/evap5.jpg

[jdk_ii]

This is the EPR valve.

It is basically a pressure throttle.

When the evaporator reaches the freezing point, it needs to reduce freon flow.
Otherwise, the evaporator will freeze, and causes various damage.

Since it reduces freon flow, and oil flows with the freon, it bascially starves
the suction line to the compressor. The compressor does not like low oil flow.

This EPR also known for mystery freon leaks.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/epr2.jpg

The expansion valve return port in yellow circle. One must use PB Blaster (ie,
soak) before attempting to remove it. This one was a success.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/epr3.jpg

Left, rather minty one, snapped. The right, a crusty one, well soaked.
It snapped also.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/jdk_ii/epr1.jpg

For the AC kit, a block off plate will be used making it a flow through.
One just has to remove the internal guts.

The compressor clutch will be disengaged via a thermostatic switch
mounting just outside the evaporator case. This will allow some nice fine tuning.