5m with 75 shot

[ah0bbs]

http://media.putfile.com/DSCF0697

This is a video of my 85 w/ 5M-GE, 75 shot, Intake, Headers, and factory exhaust for anyone who is considering similar mods. Engine has 150k+ miles and so far seems to be holding up well enough. Clutch stinks after I do a couple runs like this though.

I'll be putting in a 6m or 7mt as soon as I blow this motor to pieces. Might be awhile.

ADAM (noob)

[CJSREDPRA]

75 shot????

Stock head gasket, or metal HG??? If it's still on the stock HG, plan on the motor going kaboom very soon!!!! 50 shot, you might be okay, but you're pushing the limits of the stock HG, you would be okay w/ a metal HG.

OH BETTER YET!!! 85 motor w/ the 9.2 compression & domed pistons??? It WILL be going kaboom very soon!!! At this point, it's a matter of "when & how soon", not "if" it will happen....

[935motorsports]

I had 75 shot dry on my old old 5M engine, 75 is pretty mild. Though, considering 150k plus, I'm sure the rings are not doing so well.

I only hope there is a fuel adder there.

[SonyPete]

For a 6 cylinder thats only about 12.5 Shot per cylinder not really on the high end of things. 75 shot on a 4 banger that gets a little closer to high end of pushing it and on a v8 thats nothings. Its really depends on how many cylinders this extra power is getting spread across. personally I think 75 shot on a 4 banger is fairly safe 100 on a 6 cylinder and easy 150 on a v8, this all relative to the strudyness of the engine also. But the head gasket is a differen't story cause I forget which supra engines had a notorious problem with blowing them?? SO dunno in that department.

[BillyM]

What?... Could you explain the logic behind that one? I am under the impression that its the % increase you are taking, more than the number of cylinders. Infact, cylinder number has absolutely nothing to do with anything when deciding how much power you can make out of an engine. Every engine is different, with different short-falls. You can't just say, well its got 6 cylinders, it can take a double in cylinder pressures upon ignition.... sure.

--BillyM

[KesekiSupra]

all i know, is when i used the 75 shot on my drag car to see what it felt like. it felt like nothing. dry shot mind you. 75 shot isnt really much on our motors

[MooSeviSion1]

nitrous is stupid if you dont have a full out race car.. esp on a 5m

[zank]

75 shot????

Stock head gasket, or metal HG??? If it's still on the stock HG, plan on the motor going kaboom very soon!!!! 50 shot, you might be okay, but you're pushing the limits of the stock HG, you would be okay w/ a metal HG.

OH BETTER YET!!! 85 motor w/ the 9.2 compression & domed pistons??? It WILL be going kaboom very soon!!! At this point, it's a matter of "when & how soon", not "if" it will happen....

<---pulls the ZSS Stick out

dont knock it till you try it, if you havent experimented with it why are you even commenting/knocking on it?

we all know that with enough NO2 he can blow the HG. However, there have been quite a few threads posted up by people that have run that much NO2 in the past with no problems.

Have a nice day :suicide:

ZSS

[RaptorRacing]

nitrous is stupid if you dont have a full out race car.. esp on a 5m

Is that fact or just your opinion...nobody came out and called you stupid for your plans with your buick...please respect everyone's right to mod how they want.

[MAD_83supra]

Hell ya, I am with you Zank. Its all fun... heck it may not blow right away but it sure shows how an old engine can still do new tricks!!!He said he is going to upgrade to another engine anyway so why not have the old 5m go out proudly !!. Enjoy Adam.

[2slow4you]

Hell ya, I am with you Zank. Its all fun... heck it may not blow right away but it sure shows how an old engine can still do new tricks!!!He said he is going to upgrade to another engine anyway so why not have the old 5m go out proudly !!. Enjoy Adam.

I whole heartedly agree with that one. Let that 5m go out in style :zzzzz: Before you completly kill the motor you should take it to the track and get a few time slips :runaway:

[airwhirlybird]

i'm going to jump on the "have fun and blow your shit up" bandwagon. as long as you know that it WILL blow up soon.

its not like you are braggin that hey, "i just put NO2 on my car and now it runs 11's in the quarter, but thats only if my hemi gear is boosting at 5psi and my underglow is connected and on the strob feature. and this APC windshield banner helps to direct airflow over my car and reduces drag".

then i would have to bitch slap you

make sure to get a good vid of the engine when it does go :D

[SlimFastSupra]

link to actual video file :

http://x300.putfile.com/videos/b8-23803195358.avi


I hate it when they try to hide the video file so you can't save it.

[SonyPete]

What?... Could you explain the logic behind that one? I am under the impression that its the % increase you are taking, more than the number of cylinders. Infact, cylinder number has absolutely nothing to do with anything when deciding how much power you can make out of an engine. Every engine is different, with different short-falls. You can't just say, well its got 6 cylinders, it can take a double in cylinder pressures upon ignition.... sure.

--BillyM

Well the logic is that any nitrous shot is somewhat distributed along a certain amount of cylinders. Of course having more cylinders for the nitrous to distribute puts less stress on each piston, rod, and surrounding headgasket. If this logic wasn't semi-correct then a 75 shot would put the same extra amount of cylinder pressure in one cylinder of a single piston engine as one cylinder of a V8, which is definantly not the case.

Say theoretically you have a 100 horsepower engine and you put a 100 shot, your getting 100% more air in that engine. Your not getting 100% more air into each cylinder. Your getting a theoretcial distribtuion of 25% more air in each cylinder. See what I mean. The more air crammed into the engine the more power it makes, but that one shot of 75 isn't going into just one cylinder it getting spread between several cylinders. Sothe more cylinders you have the less strees it put on each piston and rod and surrounding headgasket. :)

[lil'devil]

sounded like my old 6m I miss that sound...a little...Like my new sound better though

[BillyM]

If this logic wasn't semi-correct then a 75 shot would put the same extra amount of cylinder pressure in one cylinder of a single piston engine as one cylinder of a V8, which is definantly not the case.

Say theoretically you have a 100 horsepower engine and you put a 100 shot, your getting 100% more air in that engine. Your not getting 100% more air into each cylinder. Your getting a theoretcial distribtuion of 25% more air in each cylinder. See what I mean. The more air crammed into the engine the more power it makes, but that one shot of 75 isn't going into just one cylinder it getting spread between several cylinders. Sothe more cylinders you have the less strees it put on each piston and rod and surrounding headgasket. :)

Man... You need to re-think some of that shit. That's absolute bull brotha.

You take a motor that puts out 100hp, be it 1cyl or 100cyl, and put a "100shot" or add nitrous to the extent of doubling the output. Of-godamn-course its going to something along the lines of double the cylinder pressures in every single cylinder... The 100cylinder isn't going to raise its cylinder pressure 1% on each cylinder... thats just... what the hell?

..someone else, please tell me I've not gone godamn retarded or something.

--BillyM

[SonyPete]

You take a motor that puts out 100hp, be it 1cyl or 100cyl, and put a "100shot" or add nitrous to the extent of doubling the output. Of-godamn-course its going to something along the lines of double the cylinder pressures in every single cylinder... --BillyM


Well if the engine was originally 100 Horse, your right, it would be double the cylinder pressure if it was 1 pistons or 100 pistons. The 100 HP engine was a bad example anyways. But thats an extreme case of a 100HP one cylinder engine with a 100 shot, as opposed to a 100HP 100 cylinder engine with a 100 shot which isn't pushing it much.

A 100 shot isn't gonna make an extra 100 horsepower in each cylinder, its gonna make that extra power along several pistons. So not every cylinder is gonna see the total amount of that 100 shot, it get distributed among the cylinders. So whatever extra amount of air a 100 shot brings it doens't all go into one cylinder it gets distributed.

Heres a better one we'll compare engines that make the same amount of horsepower per cylinder at about the same efficiency and show how the more cylinders you have the more the nitrous shot is distributed into smaller portions.

You got 150HP 4-Banger and a 300HP V8 Each with a 100 shot

HP per Cylinder ----------------- HP per Cylinder
37.5 HP --------------------------- 37.5 HP
% of the Shot per cylinder
25 HP ----------------------------- 12.5 HP

The 4-Banger gets semi-close to doubling the power in each cylinder while the V8 doens't get even close. So in terms of cylinder pressure we'll indirectly relate the extra power to the extra cylinder pressure, because of the extra air that is crammed into each cylinder. So the more cylinders you have the less the cylinder pressure goes up in each cylinder. Now like you said before every engine is different so these numbers can vary.

[rabidchimp.com]

Wow. How many of us have used nitrous? I have not, I've only worked with setting systems up, even then....hardly any experience at all, aside from reading. I think if you're going to say "your engine will go kaboom, if a 75 shot, or ANY amount of nitrous is used" should back that info up. Show us you know. Sure, we can learn from watching others, talking to others, etc, but please...just don't come across with "these are the facts" type statments, unless you are DAMNED certain. I'm with Karaki when he basically says "why the shit talking?". Let people do what they want, and keep your negative shit to yourself (everyone). Its my opinion that we're here to learn/share about the Mk2 Supra. Like it or not, these cars have owners with different minds. Accept it. Yeah, yeah, freedom of speech, but don't be a dickhead. Sorry for off topic post. Thanks for posting that vid, bro.

Billy, settle down before I pee on your next shipment.
-Aaron

[BillyM]

Ok.. it might be hard... but just clear your mind of what you are thinking is "right" for one second, and think along the line's of how I'm posting. If you still think I'm wrong, disregard this conversation fully because you are a lost cause. You are making a fool of yourself man...

Engines, put out 100hp.
1cyl, 100hp per cylinder, add a "100shot" you add 100hp worth of cyl pressure.
100cyl, 1hp per cylinder, add a "100shot" you add 1hp worth of cyl pressure.

Both double cylinder pressure... Yes, the 100cyl engine only gets 1hp worth of extra combustion from nitrous, but the cylinders were only designed to handle 1hp to begin with. You are doubling the force and pressures in the motor ANY TIME YOU DOUBLE THE OUTPUT.

An engine is designed to hold the power within its running condition. Manufacturers often over-build their engines with a certain ammount of headroom, but number of cylinders has nothing to do with it, I assure you.

After my post, and before your edit, you said that you wouldn't get a good distrobution because its a dry shot. ...and what the fuck difference is there between distrobution between a wet and dry shot? Do you have any clue of the difference between the two? ...you confusing wet-shot with direct-port injection or something?

...stop while you're... ahead?

--BillyM

[SonyPete]

I edited my post with more info read and tell me what you think about the better comparison

Like I said before a 100HP engine was a bad example, truly bad example when comparing a one cylinder with with a mulit cylinder engine.



...and what the fuck difference is there between distrobution between a wet and dry shot? Do you have any clue of the difference between the two? ...you confusing wet-shot with direct-port injection or something?
--BillyM
I do know the difference of a dry shot and a wet shot, sounds like your not to educated on it since you don't know the difference between the distribution of a wet(direct port injected) and dry shot. Dry shots are usually done before the TB and don't get distributed so well. And the wet shot is usually set up as a direct-port injection, I've never seen someone use a wet shot that wasn't direct-port injected :)

[BillyM]

...then you obviously haven't seen many nitrous setups.

Your new comparison is completely useless. You are looking at an engine that is built to accept TWICE as much power STOCK as the other. Ofcourse they are going to react differently. You are saying the number of cylinders is the main varaible. ITS NOT. The % increase in engine output goes up with the % increase in combustion pressure.

The 1cyl vs 100cyl engines with like output/displacement was the perfect example. Every variable was the same, except the number of cylinders. EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE SAYING HAD THE MAIN EFFECT ON NITROUS HANDLING The test variable was what you are disputing... the perfect comparison, and you had to botch it up. If you cant understand with that, I cant help you man.

I'm out. I've had better luck convincing batmobile that a carbon fiber driveshaft was not a good price/performance ratio. Batmobile? Where are you brother? Come on back man, I miss your ability to listen and realization of when you are wrong. (sarcasm)

...someone else can play this game, my eyes hurt.
My last job was in SpecialEd, I can handle kids who dont know better than chewing through mouse cables, peeing in keyboards, and head-butting touchscreens, and I'm gettting fed up with THIS. ...that tells you something.

--BillyM

[SonyPete]

Ohh Billy..... wierd casue I have only met your type while online, maybe its cause were seperated by screens but I hope you don't handle your self like this in real life.

Only reason you think the original example was perfect casue it doens't actually negate your opinion. And the new one totaly throws your thinking out the window. Why is the first example suseless cause its farther form the real worl then the second example. A 100HP one cylinder engine and 100 cylinder engine...buahsss hahah That not even close to a real world example.
Its just too plain to see that more cylinders you have the more a dry shot of nitrous get distributed. Why do you think that when they do a direct port injection they DON'T do a 100 shot in each runner. Instead they put the total nitrous number they want divided by the amount of injectors (150 shot divided by 6 injectors for each runner = 150 HP total shot of nitrous)

All direct port injections are wet shot and most wet shots are direct port injection. Why would anyone do a wet-shot and not put a injector in each runner for direct port injection. Beats me (slaps forehead)

I am DONE with this convo. Thanks you guys for hearing me out. :)

[airwhirlybird]

um...if i'm correct there are three types of nitrus injection, dry, wet, and direct port.

dry shot is shot into the air before it hits the throttle body. it then gets mixed in with the air, air/nitrous mix hit the TB, TB lets the right amount of air in in regards to throttle, then the a/n mix hits the plemun (spelling, sorry, i'm bad, i know), then down the runners, then into the cylinders where the fuel is injected. KABOOM, then exaust.

wet shot, for an example, i think is like the "cheater" plates that carb v8's use. it goes unde the carb, and the nitrous is mixed with the air/fuel mixture after it air and the fuel get mixed. then down the runners, and bla bla bla. how to put a wet shot on our cars, i don't know. maybe the NOSzils would be considerd a dry shot

Direct port is when the nitrous is tapped directly into the cylinder, just like the fuel injectors are.

so a wet shot and direct port are not the same, but may be close in relation in some applications.

sorry if i'm wrong, just thought i would put in my 2cents.

One way or the other, the engine wans't built for nitrous, and the extra pressure in the cylinder will eventually blow out the rings if the engine doesn't pre-ingite first. THIS ENGINE WILL BLOW UP SOONER OR LATER, and sooner than if you didn't have NO2 in it. NO2 isn't a bad thing, actually it is a very good power adder, if you engine is build for it.

have fun blowing up your engine, i sure would love to do it. in the mean time, build up that 7m if i remember correctly. make sure to post pics and keep us posted on your "time bomb", j/k.

[SonyPete]

Very tru about it going sonner or later without good tuning. Direct Port is from what I know and haver read anything that shoots nitrous directly into the port such as the runner or before the valve in the head and is almost always a wet shot. Dry just means no fuel and wet means with fuel.

[airwhirlybird]

and "direct" means directly into the chamber, and i'm 99.9% sure that means tapping on another injector like system into the cylinder.

and i don't know about your car, but i don't have any fuel going through my runners. actually, i'm 95% sure that no fuel injected vechile has any fuel going through their runners.

and even with good tuning, you can not tune the rings not to blow up. the biggest problem with nitrous is that it raises chamber pressure, thus more stress on the rings, and out they go. that can not be tuned.

[mk2rnd]

What?... Could you explain the logic behind that one? I am under the impression that its the % increase you are taking, more than the number of cylinders. Infact, cylinder number has absolutely nothing to do with anything when deciding how much power you can make out of an engine. Every engine is different, with different short-falls. You can't just say, well its got 6 cylinders, it can take a double in cylinder pressures upon ignition.... sure.

--BillyM

Billy go back to wherever you researched the whole ...number of cylinders has nothing to do with how much power an engine can produce.... Obviously displacement and cylinders determine very much indeed. Neither is independent without some limiting factor. Why doesn't Ferrari make 4 cylinder supercars, or do we see 2 cylinder full size pu's.

I am still trying to find what Pete said that got you so irritated. His statement is almost a direct quote from the NOS FAQ's online. He even put in an internals strength disclaimer, and a note that he couldn't comment on HG's.

Sorry, but your flames were misplaced, cheers to anyone who does anything fun with a supra.

[SupraFiend]

alot of direct port injection systems have a little spacer that goes under the stock fuel injectors and said spacer is esseniatially the nitrous injector but it allows the stock injectors to work like normal.

As for blowing up the motor? Well I'm going to argue that one to an extent. Stock 5m pistons have been proven to take plenty of boost, like up to around 300hp worth. M motor bottoms have been obviously pushed much further. However the weak link is the stock head gasket. I'd think a metal headgasket 5m in excellent shape could survive a fair bit of laughing gas for quite a long time, like as long as it can survive a similar amount of boost.

Billy and Pete, you guys have gone off the deep end. I didn't read every line of your babbling but Pete's original theory was right except he made one huge mistake. Its not the number of cylinders that makes the shot easier on the motor, its the dissplacement. A 75 shot on a 1.6 liter is a big deal, on a 5.0 liter, not so much a big deal. A 2 liter 4 cylinder and a 2 liter 6 cylinder will experience similar amounts of stress with the same shot. There, isn't that easy? :p

[ah0bbs]

You guys are going to give me an aneurysm... this is why I don't post online much.

Thanks to those who understand that I don't take myself too seriously and that I was posting the video solely as a source of entertainment or education.

Displacement (not no. of cylinders) correlates to how much of any kind of increase can be safely handled ASSUMING that all engines are built outputting the same portion relative to their capability- which they are NOT.

My guess is that the first thing to fail would be the HG because this is the most commonly reported stress-related failure.

If you've decided that rings are the weakest part of a 5m, let alone any Toyota engine, you are making a bold statement that I think many will challenge.

And if you think I need to have a dragster like you do before I'm allowed to put nitrous through my motor, just tell us all why. Think Big Picture when you answer.

"You can go as FAST as you want for as LONG as you can afford it." (not my quote, but a good one).

I'll let you know of any additions or explosions in the future.

ADAM

[SonyPete]

and "direct" means directly into the chamber, and i'm 99.9% sure that means tapping on another injector like system into the cylinder.

and i don't know about your car, but i don't have any fuel going through my runners. actually, i'm 95% sure that no fuel injected vechile has any fuel going through their runners.

and even with good tuning, you can not tune the rings not to blow up. the biggest problem with nitrous is that it raises chamber pressure, thus more stress on the rings, and out they go. that can not be tuned.

Well most cars don't have fuel injectors directly tapped inthe the cylinder :) only diesal engines. About the fuel going into the runners stock cars inject right at the entrance of the port on the head. And First basic direct port injections are tapped in the runner beofre the stock fuel injectors. They then invented a setup that fits under the stock fuel injector that allows you to inject nitrous and some extra fuel without tapping into your runners. Which SupraFiend made mention of already.

Just do a basic search for "nitrous direct-port injection" and you can get links like this http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=25


...theory was right except he made one huge mistake. Its not the number of cylinders that makes the shot easier on the motor, its the dissplacement.
SupraFiend I thought those two things were directly related since more cylinders = more displacement?? Kinda of the same thing I thought.

[lil'devil]

Wow

[airwhirlybird]

uh...i'm with you on this one billy, this is a lost cause. oh well, fuck it

[dogstar]

lol, sounds like a fun car, hope you enjoy the spray for a while.

and sonypete.... there are 3 liter v12 engines, and there are 3 liter 4 cylinders... number of cylinders really means nothing when you get right down to it.

man, a 3 liter v12 on spray would be a trip :D

[WadeT]

lol, sounds like a fun car, hope you enjoy the spray for a while.

and sonypete.... there are 3 liter v12 engines, and there are 3 liter 4 cylinders... number of cylinders really means nothing when you get right down to it.

man, a 3 liter v12 on spray would be a trip :D

Actually, it does. The more the cylinders the more the valves per-cubic inch, the more the flow and thus the better the volumemetric efficiency.

BTW, the car sounds nice on spray. :)

[Junkie]

Wade....local car :p Adam has been to the shop now.....give him a bit,should be a very entertaining car if he keeps it up.

[SonyPete]

and sonypete.... there are 3 liter v12 engines, and there are 3 liter 4 cylinders... number of cylinders really means nothing when you get right down to it.

Your right there is engines of every size. But for the most part, engines with more cylinders have more rods and more crank area to take the abuse. More cylinders means more peices to spread the nitrous shot over, since it gets spread out among the cylinders. One rod is gonna have a hell of a time taking one 75 shot of extra power, but 6 rods are gonna be able to take the 75 shot of extra power allot more easily with less stress. Since that shot is only gonna make a smaller percentage increase of power in each cylinder unlike a one cylinder engine having to take 100% of the increase in power.

[dogstar]

sonypete, you really dont get any of what was explained to you do ya?
the fact of the matter is, if your adding 13% power, it doesnt matter if your adding it to a 3 cylinder or a 30 cylinder.
the percentage of increase is the same, it adds the same stresses to the motor.

and wade, you are right more valves are going to be more efficient, but lets just say that V.E is the same... the number of cylinders shouldnt matter.

[WadeT]

sonypete, you really dont get any of what was explained to you do ya?
the fact of the matter is, if your adding 13% power, it doesnt matter if your adding it to a 3 cylinder or a 30 cylinder.
the percentage of increase is the same, it adds the same stresses to the motor.

and wade, you are right more valves are going to be more efficient, but lets just say that V.E is the same... the number of cylinders shouldnt matter.

Sure it does. It would be impossible to have a 24V V6 have the same VE as a 48V V12- all things being equal.

Ferrari had a reason for using V12s other than displacement.

[WadeT]

Wade....local car :p Adam has been to the shop now.....give him a bit,should be a very entertaining car if he keeps it up.
Shweet. I'd love to ride in that thing!

[Supra_devil]

Sure it does. It would be impossible to have a 24V V6 have the same VE as a 48V V12- all things being equal.

Ferrari had a reason for using V12s other than displacement.


this is a theoretical discussion on how it works. cuz if you were to compare on 2 motors with different efficiency ratings then you won't have a fair comparision.

i think this whole thread is dumb personally, the vid was cool, although i found it hard to "feel" how fast the car was, no speedo and it was dark. the rest of you argueing how nitrous is bad or good, right, wrong is dumb. we get an extra 75 hp all the time with a ct-26, do you really think that a turbo is any less hard on an engine than nitrous? when used properly nitrous is a very convienent power adder if you can afford the refills and only want the power occasionally.

[SonyPete]

sonypete, you really dont get any of what was explained to you do ya?
the fact of the matter is, if your adding 13% power, it doesnt matter if your adding it to a 3 cylinder or a 30 cylinder.
the percentage of increase is the same, it adds the same stresses to the motor.

and wade, you are right more valves are going to be more efficient, but lets just say that V.E is the same... the number of cylinders shouldnt matter.

So your telling me the rod in a one cylinder engine is gonna be just as stressed under a 100 shot as all 8 rods in a V8 engine will be, very perplexing. I personally think, that one rod is so much more likely to snap than any of the rods in a V8 engine since the stress is spread out among more parts. (Shrugs)

[SupraFiend]

what your not getting is that a bigger dissplacement motor is going to dillute a nitrous shot. A 75 shot in a 2 liter motor may occupy say 20 percent (all bs numbers btw) of the air and fuel going into the motor, but on a 5 liter motor that injests so much more air and fuel normally, a 75 shot would only occupy say 8 percent of the incoming air and fuel, thus producing less power per liter of dissplacement and thus producing less stress.

[ah0bbs]

Yeah, if you say you're dividing the the extra load over more rods, rings, etc. then you are making the assumption that the 1-cyl engine is engineered with less tolorance to a total percentage load increase than the 100-cyl. If you remove that assumption such that the rod on the 1-cyl is as beefy as is should be to be equally as reliable as the 100-cyl, then it will handle handle the same relative increase. It will be better if you now factor in the decreased probability of a manufacturing defect-related failure associated with the greater quantity of parts.

I think we've dug about as deep as we can go with this one- which is fine, I like understanding details myself.

As for the valves, more/bigger intake valves are not better with nitrous as it is with charging. If you only ran your car on nitrous, your ideal head would have tiny intake valves and big exhaust valves.

A note on charging- If you tell people you are running 10 psi (your boost guage reading), you're actually telling them how much air you are failing to get into the engine. If you find a way to improve the passage of air between the turbo and the cylinder then your boost reading will go down and your power will go up.

Not as much the case with nitrous, however, since there is a higher concentration of oxygen, you need less passage efficiency for which to deliver an adquate amount for the fuel to react with. A motor which is properly set up for large amounts of nitrous will have smaller intake valves and larger exhaust valves than its NA counterpart.

Point being, more valves means more flow in and out, which will help you when youre running without nitrous, but should not result in a greater % gain realized on nitrous than with a 2 valve/cylinder configuration, ceteribus peribus.

ADAM

[Supra_devil]

So your telling me the rod in a one cylinder engine is gonna be just as stressed under a 100 shot as all 8 rods in a V8 engine will be, very perplexing. I personally think, that one rod is so much more likely to snap than any of the rods in a V8 engine since the stress is spread out among more parts. (Shrugs)


READ!!!!!!!!!


he said nothing about 100 shot. or anything shot.
he said 13%, a 13% gain on a 1 cylinder and a 13% gain on a v8 will not be the same amount, but will be putting the same amount of EXTRA force on ALL of the motors components.


like i said, this thread is getting stupid, no one seems to read. If i knew that the way i understand nitrous to work was correct thorugh using it and reading about it then i would Tell you all how it works and end the arguement, however i don't believe myself to be that compotent with it. maybe some of you need to do the same thing.

[SonyPete]

READ!!!!!!!!!
he said nothing about 100 shot. or anything shot.
he said 13%, a 13% gain on a 1 cylinder and a 13% gain on a v8 will not be the same amount, but will be putting the same amount of EXTRA force on ALL of the motors components.


Umm what you mean 13% gain....a 100 shot is a 100 shot no matter what engine it is. Of course if we compared two different engines and said both were to have an 13% increase in power they would both be stressed as much, but that isn't the case cause we talking about a specific amount of extra horsepower. This all started when I said one specific shot on a 6 cylinder supra engine would be less stressed than that same shot on a smaller engine.

100 shot on a 1 cylinder is gonna make 100 horse power more same as a 100 shot on a V8 is gonna make 100 extra horse power. Not gonna both have the same % gain. You don't measure nitrous by how much % gain in overall power your gonna make. Its all about a specific extra amount of power and that is when you don't get the same amount of extra stress among different engines. Its what ever current horsepower + size of nitrous shot. It does not mean the current horsepower + a certain % increase.

An extra 100 horsepower shot on a V8 is a smaller % increase in overall power than on a one cylinder, def not the same % increase, as you are saying. Thus putting less stress on it. Bigger the engine the less stress from a specific shot of nitrous, its pretty plain and simple.

[Donn29]

nitrous: add until desired constancy of 'holy shit' is reached, then go for a ride
and shut up :lock_it:

[dogstar]

now, i think your almost getting it.

more displacement is more important than the number of cylinders.
i already said this, assuming equal volumetric efficiency and equal displacement, it doesnt matter if its a v34 or a 4 cylinder... this is what we were trying to tell you for the last week and a half.

i disagree, i dont think this thread needs to be locked, i think it WAS a good thread, showcasing a nitrous equipped supra.

more video in daytime please. :)

[BillyM]

Number of explaination attempts vs failures.

I've got Pete for 5:0 odds, who wants to throw down cash?

...next guy to try to clue him in, step right up and in the ring.


Pete, dont ever mod your supra beyond intake/header/exhaust, please. I dont want you driving up demand for rebuild parts for our lowly motors.

--BillyM

[SonyPete]

Well my thinking hasn't changed since my first post don't know what part you think I changed my mind on, cause it didn't happen :)

More displacement is more important than the number of cylinders. Well Dogstar isn't the number of cylinders DIRECTLY related to displacement, as you can only overbore your engine so much or stroke it. :rolleyes: My previous post seems to be not picked apart guess it was true.

And for you HotM16 glad you could pop your head out from behind your rock please keep your low blows to yourself. Cause, as anyone on this board could see is there were just as many other explanations as were mine.

As for you not wanting me to go farther then bolt on mods hahahah. I would like you to know that I am already past stage 1 of my 2 stage build up of my venerable 22RE build up that should be putting me well past 300 horse, from a little ol' 4 banger, thank you very much. IF you would like some info about everything I did PM me would be glad to go in depth of all the little things that went into it.

And yes I am glad this thread has not been locked and a video of a day run would be even sweeter.

[Supra_devil]

Well my thinking hasn't changed since my first post don't know what part you think I changed my mind on, cause it didn't happen :)
Well Dogstar isn't the number of cylinders DIRECTLY related to displacement, as you can only overbore your engine so much or stroke it. :rolleyes: My previous post seems to be not picked apart guess it was true.

And for you HotM16 glad you could pop your head out from behind your rock please keep your low blows to yourself. Cause, as anyone on this board could see is there were just as many other explanations as were mine.

As for you not wanting me to go farther then bolt on mods hahahah. I would like you to know that I am already past stage 1 of my 2 stage build up of my venerable 22RE build up that should be putting me well past 300 horse, from a little ol' 4 banger, thank you very much. IF you would like some info about everything I did PM me would be glad to go in depth of all the little things that went into it.

And yes I am glad this thread has not been locked and a video of a day run would be even sweeter.


NO displacement is not directly related to # of cylinders. my neighbour has a 3.5L v8, my dad has a 3.9L v6.

and making 300 hp from a 22RE isn't the biggest thing in the world, i have seen that more than a couple times. I prefer the 22RTE my friend swapped into a Celica GT-S thats got a garrett GT28R never seen a 300hp NA 5M, do that without spending a fortune and i'll be impressed.

[SonyPete]

Well I wasn't saying displacement isn't the only part of the equation. :) Its multiplieing the bore area times the stroke then multiply the number of cylinders. Which looks to me to have a direct relation to the end product of displacement.

Well the 22RE and the 22RTE are near identical engines. Well depends on what year the 22RE block is. But yea the older 5m is similiar in design considering there both hemi style head chambers so would be sweet to see one of those done up. Not to many people have done over 300 horse with under 15 lbs of boost on a 22RE, which is what I'm trying todo. Just not sure if I should get a 20R head and make a custom mani for it OR make the 20R head work with my current intake manifold?? Dunno yet

[BillyM]

Pete, the ONLY point EVERYONE is trying to make to you is that when you generalize with a sweeping statement saying a 4cyl can take XXXhp shot, 6cyl can take XXXhp shot, and a 8cyl can take XXXhp shot, you are making a sweeping statement that is not correct. If you want to generalize, generalize with the final outcome, not one of the variables leading up to, DISPLACEMENT, or the resulting % increase in HP you will be achieving.

My boat has a 3.7L 4cyl, my limousine has a 4.1L v8. The marine engine is a known bulletproof block, the cadillac is a known timebomb. Can the v8 take 2x as much boost? No... Fuck no. In fact, judging by the known reliability of the two engines, I would feel safer pushing a 100hp shot through the marine engine than I would pushing a 50hp shot through the caddy. ...lesson of the story, dont make generalized sweeping statements that can be seen as quite misleading, someone will tear your ass about it.

--BillyM
(got bored out on the boat, decided to borrow some wireless)

[SonyPete]

I see where you coming from and yes your right in the fact that I did make a statement that was generalized somewhat. Just like in any situtation you have a basic starting point and from there you get more detailed, as in this case you see that you have more displacement and then go from there pin pointing the pros and cons of your particular setup. Not al engines came fomr the factory with certain known problems such as a faulty headgasket like the supra did or a cadillac that are known to be very figity. For the most part large manufactors try to put out engines that have a fairly overbuilt :)

[WadeT]

now, i think your almost getting it.

more displacement is more important than the number of cylinders.
i already said this, assuming equal volumetric efficiency and equal displacement, it doesnt matter if its a v34 or a 4 cylinder... this is what we were trying to tell you for the last week and a half.


Once again i disagree although I'm no mechanical engineer. So, i can't dance on the finer details of VE and how it relates to valve area, the number of cylinders and their relation to the number of power strokes going on at a given rpm. I do know that IF you can take a 1cyl 4v 300 CI motor and put it up against a 12cyl 48v 300CI motor the 12cyl will likely make more power, will rev higher and will probably take more power adders. There are many reasons why. Most of which are the fact that there are more valves for the given displacement. More valves = better VE%s. This is why a 7m has a higher VE than a 6m. You can extrapalate this from 1 cylinder to any number.

[Supra_devil]

Once again i disagree although I'm no mechanical engineer. So, i can't dance on the finer details of VE and how it relates to valve area, the number of cylinders and their relation to the number of power strokes going on at a given rpm. I do know that IF you can take a 1cyl 4v 300 CI motor and put it up against a 12cyl 48v 300CI motor the 12cyl will likely make more power, will rev higher and will probably take more power adders. There are many reasons why. Most of which are the fact that there are more valves for the given displacement. More valves = better VE%s. This is why a 7m has a higher VE than a 6m. You can extrapalate this from 1 cylinder to any number.

WTF??? he is using it as a theoretical example, give up already, THE VE CAN BE THE SAME. it is volumetric efficiency. definition below.

quick definition, Volumetric efficiency is the measurement of how close the actual volumetric flow rate is to the theoretical volumetric flow rate. A engine has a set volume (displacement) that can be calculated. However, your engine will not use the full volume (100%) it has available because of friction losses, leaks, and the fact that a mass produced engine can only be so good before the money out weighs the benefits (the point of diminishing returns).

they listed the biggest influences as carb/throttle body, restrictor plates (NA in this case), manifold, cam, headers. the size of the valves more than the # of them, cuz flow area of the valve can be achieved with a big single valve over 2 valves, however this is ineffiecent since the size of the cylinder head would need to be huge to accomidate valves that large. SO by using 2 smaller valves in the palce of one larger one the flow area of the valve is larger.

EDITED

[WadeT]

WTF??? he is using it as a theoretical example, give up already, why do you feel the need to pound the fact that the VE will most likely not be the same.
Why keep bringing it up, he has already agreed that they won't be the same, but for the sake of the example used it.

WHo's he? 1/2 the posts were about the No2 thing. I don't know who's you're refering to. But I was responding to yours. Relax.

[Supra_devil]

he was Dogstar. i repsonded after your post on that. and i'm not worked up, i am relaxed. :)

[lil'devil]

I don't know sh!t about this subject....All new territory to me....Seems complicated though To complicated to NOS my car anyways.

Needing and education seminar on the subject.

[WadeT]

WTF??? he is using it as a theoretical example, give up already, THE VE CAN BE THE SAME. it is volumetric efficiency. definition below.

quick definition, Volumetric efficiency is the measurement of how close the actual volumetric flow rate is to the theoretical volumetric flow rate. A engine has a set volume (displacement) that can be calculated. However, your engine will not use the full volume (100%) it has available because of friction losses, leaks, and the fact that a mass produced engine can only be so good before the money out weighs the benefits (the point of diminishing returns).

they listed the biggest influences as carb/throttle body, restrictor plates (NA in this case), manifold, cam, headers. the size of the valves more than the # of them, cuz flow area of the valve can be achieved with a big single valve over 2 valves, however this is ineffiecent since the size of the cylinder head would need to be huge to accomidate valves that large. SO by using 2 smaller valves in the palce of one larger one the flow area of the valve is larger.

EDITED

Restricter plates are a NASCAR addon rule.
I'm not gonna argue with you that some exotic engine with many moving parts with 99% VE will be less cost effective to build. That wasn't even part of the debate.:)
If you can imagine say 100 little valves in a cylinder head occupying all of the cylinder head. Then imagine 2 giant valves occupying that same, all other things being equal, cylinder head. And pretend both have the same valve area. I guaranty that 100 valve head completely out flow the 2v. The air with the 2v has to travel or crossflow too much. Ok i'm tired and done.:)

[ah0bbs]

Neither volumetric efficiency nor any other measure of efficiency have anything to do with how much power increase an engine can handle before it breaks.

ADAM

[Supra_devil]

Restricter plates are a NASCAR addon rule.
I'm not gonna argue with you that some exotic engine with many moving parts with 99% VE will be less cost effective to build. That wasn't even part of the debate.:)
If you can imagine say 100 little valves in a cylinder head occupying all of the cylinder head. Then imagine 2 giant valves occupying that same, all other things being equal, cylinder head. And pretend both have the same valve area. I guaranty that 100 valve head completely out flow the 2v. The air with the 2v has to travel or crossflow too much. Ok i'm tired and done.:)

i know what restrictor plates are and used for.

this thread is getting dumb, and i kick myself for getting involved. The VE can be the same, which you said it could not. This is all i wanted to clear up.

Nitrous IS safe. IS fun. so i hope to see more nitrous vids soon. hopefully the next one won't start a stupid thread like this where we get WAY off topic, lol. If you want to learn more on VE and how to calculate it then use Google, and if you want more discussion, start a thread.

[Donn29]

lets delete/move all the bs off topic posts? :dead hors :ss_ban: :sign_offt

[BillyM]

lets delete/move PETE :dead hors :ss_ban: :sign_offt

Haha!

--BillyM

[SonyPete]

Popping out from behind that rock again I see.......tssk tssk tssk what did I say mr.

I wasn't even part of the last 10 posts. :) And plus you still haven't thrown anything my way that was even remotely close to disproving posts. So just leave your negative comments to yourself.

[WadeT]

Neither volumetric efficiency nor any other measure of efficiency have anything to do with how much power increase an engine can handle before it breaks.

ADAM

I don't think anyone, including my self, was making that argument.

[ah0bbs]

Sorry, I thought that's what you were implying.

[Donn29]

lets delete/move all the bs off topic posts? :dead hors :ss_ban: :sign_offt
rrr :badger: :)

[airwhirlybird]

fuck NOS, i'm replacing my muffler bearings and putting a higher hemi-gear in my car, that with the coefficent factor of the new TRD banner i'm getting, i hope to get anoter 45rwhp!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b287/airwhirlybird/50545094_s.jpg

[ABQMK2]

can one someone please block anymore posts on this thread...its got me all frigged up in the head!!!!

BTW...put on a bigger shot (150 will do)and make another video for my amusement....thanks!!!

whirlybird....I'll race your #3 fastest N/A supra with my diesel truck :)

[lil'devil]

whirlybird....I'll race your #3 fastest N/A supra with my diesel truck


DAmon got 14.2 I believe with his N/A...so that bumps you to #4...I got 15 even, so that bumps you to # 5.....I'm sure there are countless others that have none better with an N/A engine in a MKII :)