W58 Strength/weaknesses FAQ [Archive] - Toyota CelicaSupra Forums

: W58 Strength/weaknesses FAQ



jtamulis
12-23-2005, 12:43 PM
I have been asked this question many times, and I useally answer it.

Today I'm going to do a little writeup on what it takes to kill a W58
transmission. I've helped break 6+. And know about several more.

Clutches/Flywheels:
6-puck clutches are much harder on the transmission
unsprung hub clutches are worst.
Lightened flywheels seem to make the transfer of engine to trans
power much more "jerky" and in my opinion harsher on the transmision.
(you would think this not to be the case, but I have a full weight flywheel
on my 7M-GTE MKII, and I like it's driveability 100% more).

Gears:
5th gear is extremely weak, I know 3 people with turbo MKIIs not even
making much power that shifted semi-hard into 5th on the highway and
broke 5th gear. When Chris and I did this we downshifted to 4th and even
tho the transmission made TERRIBLE noises, we were able to limp it home.

4th gear is the strongest gear it seems, being 1:1 ratio, this would make
sense, useually when Chris broke a transmission, 4th still worked even when
all the others went belly up.

3rd gear only seems to have issued when people shift too quickly and blow the
syncros up. I know a few guys who did this.

2nd gear is a bit funny. Chris broke 2nd one day with apparently no reason. I
believe this was due to age of the transmission, and most 2nd gear failures are
due to very sticky tires and hard launches.

1st is useually broken do to a very hard launch, and useually with a heavy weight
flywheel and a puck style clutch. I know people who have broken 1st gear on
a MKII with a 6M-GE (3.0 N/A JDM Motor for those that don't know). This happens
with somewhat sticky tires (like at the drag strip), but sometimes even on street
tires.

input shaft: This is mostly where power comes into play, at around 300 to 350
rwhp the input shaft of the transmission starts reaching its limits on a normal
MKII transmission. The MKIV version has this problem fixxed and hence why
some say they can take 500rwhp easily (they can't)

Power: Reg Reimer long ago said that the MKII drivetrain can take 350rwhp all
day long, any more than that and its driving style and a matter of time before
stuff starts breaking. And for the most part that is dead on.

Fluid: Use Redline or Amsoil transmission fluid

Age: Usually an older thransmission has at one point in time had abuse done to
it, so when you start doubling or more the stock power, it can have problems.

If you don't abuse your W58, and ease it out of the hole (no clutch drops),
and push the clutch all the way in to shift, don't speed shift, and wait until
your in gear fully before you let the clutch out, you should be able to give
it full power in 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and as long as you stay outta 5th, and you
have a reasonable clutch, the transmission should last you to 400rwhp.

I have more than 350rwhp in my 7M-GTE MKII, and fairly sticky street tires. I
don't abuse it, and I hope it will last a long time. I also have a Spare MKII W58,
a MKIV W58 and an R154 in case I break my transmission.

Good luck, and this is just an overview and your mileage may vary 8-).

Jeff Tamulis

SupraFiend
12-23-2005, 08:57 PM
Very cool! How does the mk4 w58 differ in comparison durabilty wise besides the input shaft?

jtamulis
12-23-2005, 11:01 PM
as far as I could tell its only the input shaft was the only real weakness, that and some
thrust washers, etc. minor upgrades to a very stout box.

Jeff

84supra74vette
12-27-2005, 02:34 AM
good writeup, but what about the clutch? how much power can an oem clutch take? i replaced my clutch about 4k ago with the $50 oem and am about to go 6mgte with 280ft/lbs. i assume as long as i stay off the drag strip ill be fine. what do you think?

jtamulis
12-27-2005, 02:52 AM
The stock clutch (if new) can take maybe 225-250rwhp. You're mileage may vary, but that's
what I found out. If you mean 280 crank horsepower hen you'll prolly be ok, BUT the 6M-GTE
make a wicked lot of torque, so its a toss-up. We had problems finding a clutch in the day
that would hold the power. RPS makes a high HP W58 clutch now because we helped them
make it. Most companies give a torque rating on thier clutches, and most are a little proud
of thier work, and most dont hold the power without being an abusive 6-puck, or worse.

(ok I'm talking big big power 400+rwhp)

Jeff

williamb82
12-27-2005, 05:57 PM
iirc, there is no 4th gear which is why it pretty much always works. from what ive rread, 4th is just the input and output shaft locked together by the synchros.

oldschool85
12-29-2005, 12:30 AM
now correct me if im wrong here but if your putting in a mk4 w58, all you would change would be the tailshaft housing and the shifter housing correct?

jtamulis
12-29-2005, 11:34 AM
and the bellhousing, but yes 8-). ALSO change the little speedo gears while your at it.
Jeff

2UPK321
12-29-2005, 04:11 PM
and the bellhousing, but yes 8-). ALSO change the little speedo gears while your at it.
Jeff

4th will (almost) ALWAYS work unless you break one of the shafts. Because on most transmissions 4th is Direct Drive Locking the input and output shaft together.

I will try and get a picture of a mustang counter shaft that has all of the teethe stripped off it for all of the gears but 4th still worked because all you are doing is locking the shafts.

oldschool85
12-29-2005, 06:55 PM
jeff what little speedo gears are you talkin about?

charlie

jtamulis
12-29-2005, 07:18 PM
ok, once you remove the tailshaft cover, there will be a little gear on the shaft in plastic and on the housing there is another gear in plastic (its the one that you plug the speedo cable into. You replace the gears both sides with the ones from your MKII, this way you keep the speedo ratio and speedo working, If you don't they speedo will stop working about 2 miles in.

Jeff

lechner
01-02-2006, 07:10 PM
Very cool! How does the mk4 w58 differ in comparison durabilty wise besides the input shaft?I believe I read somewhere that the MKIV W58 also has better synchros between 1st and 2nd, and between 2nd and 3rd. This would make it less likely to develop that '2nd gear grind' that many MKII's have (and that once caused me to blow an 82 engine due to overrev when 2nd didn't catch). I don't remember where I read this, so can anybody confirm it? Perhaps the MKIV uses dual synchros between these gears?

jtamulis
01-02-2006, 07:52 PM
come to think about it, the MKIV tranny did shift a LOT smoother.

Jeff

cheappower82
01-02-2006, 10:51 PM
A local here has destroyed 3 or 4 late-w58's in his sc300 (sp67 @ ~15psi). They don't like the upper gears (4+) for some reason.

Now I've been abusing my mkii w58 for years now; luckily it's held out well from it's original 150 crank hp to the current 350 wheel hp.

i've noticed very little difference from the stock flywheel and the fidanza. i definitely would stay away from puck style clutches

my $.02

StanS
01-03-2006, 01:43 PM
"i've noticed very little difference from the stock flywheel and the fidanza."

From 150 hp or 350rwhp or somewhere in between? Some details please!

cheappower82
01-03-2006, 11:40 PM
no difference in drivability, chatter, or any other problem. But the engine did seem to rev faster (less rotating mass)

Norbie
01-04-2006, 09:42 AM
I believe I read somewhere that the MKIV W58 also has better synchros between 1st and 2nd, and between 2nd and 3rd. This would make it less likely to develop that '2nd gear grind' that many MKII's have (and that once caused me to blow an 82 engine due to overrev when 2nd didn't catch). I don't remember where I read this, so can anybody confirm it? Perhaps the MKIV uses dual synchros between these gears?
I've had an early W58 gearset next to a late W58 gearset in my garage, and compared them closely to find any differences. There are quite a few minor changes (eg slightly wider bearings) but nothing really significant. The design of the synchro's (all of them) was slightly different but I wouldn't have said they were much better. Your average MkIV W58 is likely to shift better than your average MkII box, for the simple reason it's 10-15 years newer and therefore has much less wear!

There is a thread on the Toymods forums with pics, but I can't be bothered searching for it right now.

supraman
01-13-2006, 01:19 AM
And be sure to use a GL4 fluid (like Redline MT-90), not GL5. I've seen many transmissions with crunchy synchros as a result of using GL5 or similar, because it allows the sychros to slip instead of grab.

MT-90, and it's like buttah.

-Jimi

CarFreek
01-13-2006, 06:46 PM
It took me a little while to realize that when a customer asks me for 4Th Gear in a 5 speed-that I get to sell him 2 shafts-$$$$$$-Design of typical 3/4 speed is so linear and compact that adding 5th gear was a real design challenge for Warner Gear and Tremec back in the day-Now you got fwd 6 speed transaxles smaller than old school 3 speeds-Ah, progress- Oh yeah-redline rocks-And isnt the torsional deflection from all the torque as you get close to/arrive at 1-1 ratio why you see so many 4th/5th gear failures in high horsepower cars? Saw a Toyota 4x4 P/U with a w58 in a shop in 1994 by Spokane(Chewelah)-Unit ran w/o oil from tricities-about 250 miles-moving in 4th gear-torn apart, all thats left are galled pieces of metal and 2 shafts w/little nubbins of gears left-was making enough mechanical contact to move truck-Yee Haw

Dangerous Ken
01-13-2006, 08:29 PM
Mike,

So do you agree with Jimi on Redline MT-90 versus Redline 75w90?
Also, what fluid is your preference for the W58?

Ken


And be sure to use a GL4 fluid (like Redline MT-90), not GL5. I've seen many transmissions with crunchy synchros as a result of using GL5 or similar, because it allows the sychros to slip instead of grab.

MT-90, and it's like buttah.

-Jimi

Funkycheeze
01-13-2006, 10:32 PM
W58: use MT90

R154: use light shockproof

Deanfun
01-13-2006, 10:47 PM
iirc, there is no 4th gear which is why it pretty much always works. from what ive rread, 4th is just the input and output shaft locked together by the synchros.learn something new everyday! That's pretty neat.

supraman
01-14-2006, 02:31 AM
Both Redline MTL and MT-90 are GL-4. Redline 75W90 is a super-slippery GL-5, which is not good for synchro engagement in these transmissions. I wasn't attempting to endorse a particular product, so much as emphasize not using a GL-5 in either the W or R transmissions. That is my main point.

I thought I remembered reading that Redline's Shockproof products were not recommended for synchronizer transmissions...

Regards,

Jimi

CarFreek
01-16-2006, 08:26 PM
Both Redline MTL and MT-90 are GL-4. Redline 75W90 is a super-slippery GL-5, which is not good for synchro engagement in these transmissions. I wasn't attempting to endorse a particular product, so much as emphasize not using a GL-5 in either the W or R transmissions. That is my main point.

I thought I remembered reading that Redline's Shockproof products were not recommended for synchronizer transmissions...

Regards,

Jimi
What he said!

abustiffy
03-28-2006, 01:39 AM
Sorry to bring up an old thread but what is the changeover or is there markings to identify a later or earlier w58. Some cars, like the sc300 were produced before the mk4 but existed alongside them. Im looking for a tranny for my 1j but it seems everyone wants to rape me on a mk4 n/a transmission.

jtamulis
03-28-2006, 10:36 AM
You know when I get back from my trip I may try to see the differences.
I have a 94 MKIV W58 tranny and one from a 1982, both sitting in my
garage in boxes.

Norbie
04-04-2006, 02:52 AM
The transmission casing is externally identical. The only way to tell them apart is to look at the shifter, if it's still intact. Early W58's have an internal shifter, while every later one I've seen is external.

Here's what the early vs late shifter housings look like. Note they're interchangeable with minor modifications, but as you can see they're quite different and this can easily be spotted.

http://www.norbie.net/Project2JZ/XMember2/medium_Trans5.jpg

cheappower82
04-04-2006, 11:30 AM
Cool. Thanks for the pic Norbie

SupraFiend
04-05-2006, 05:18 PM
I belive the question was, are the SC300 w58s the same as the mk4 NA trannies, both internally and externally. You could probably look that up on a toyota EPC.

Norbie
04-05-2006, 10:12 PM
If there's any difference at all, it will be in the gearstick position and/or gear ratios. I've heard the SC300's actually have a W55, so that would suggest the ratios are different to the Supra's W58. Don't know about the shifter though.

abustiffy
04-06-2006, 05:14 AM
Im more worried about the stronger transmission. Seems people like to sell mk4 n/a as if they are made of inconel coated titanium with solid gold synchros. You can find the sc transmissions for ~450-500 with minimal effort.

SupraFiend
04-06-2006, 12:27 PM
get one with the motor and they'll cost you the same and then you can sell the motor for what you paid for the whole thing lol.

williamb82
04-07-2006, 03:39 AM
i have the amsoil 80w-90 full synthetic in my w58, no probs. never even thoughtto see if it was gl5 or not. i got the amsoil 75w90 extreame duty gear oil in the diff. both the trans and diff seem to love it so far, thoug hthe diff has the truetrac in it. all my w58's broke in 3rd, or rather right after shifting to 3rd. stripped teeth off the gears. better synchros wont strengthen the gears. the r154's have yet to shed any teeth, thats why i wanna rebuild one wit hthe uograded thrust plate and thrust washer and see if it holds. i prefere manual to auto anyday. plus the th400 doesnt have overdrive. bleh.

Peewee
04-10-2006, 03:44 AM
I doubt there is any different in strength between any of the steel sandwich plate boxes.
ie, from late MA70 all the way to JZA80.

IS300 does run a W55 (at least some do).

W55 will look identical to W58, so make sure you check those ratio's before purchasing.

abustiffy
04-14-2006, 12:08 AM
i have a spare late ma70 w58 as a backup. Ill have to compare to my 83 w58 when the motor comes out. Just need a bellhousing and flywheel. Hopefully I dont kill both transmssions before I go to a tremec TKO. Going to try a full face kevlar disk on stock pp for now.

aussiepete
05-02-2006, 06:40 AM
i have a w55 sitting in my shed thats in top condition,why dont people use them in the supras?are they weaker?

Peewee
05-02-2006, 06:46 AM
The W55 in alloy sandwich form is no weaker than the W57 or W58 in alloy sandwich form.

The W55 in steel sandwich form is no weaker than the W58 in steel sandwich form.

They are used behind 1GGTE's from factory, as well as most (if not all) IS300's.

The ratios in 1st and 2nd are not very appealing though.

aussiepete
05-02-2006, 08:34 AM
aaaaaaaaaaahhhhh thanks was wondering why they dont use them behind 7mgts..they always seem to be sold to people wanting to put them behind v8's.
so im guessing 1st and 2nd are too low and dont give the turbo time to spool up?

CJSREDPRA
05-02-2006, 05:59 PM
so im guessing 1st and 2nd are too low and dont give the turbo time to spool up?

Instead of "guessing", please go here:

http://www.forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=21310

This has been around for the last 3 weeks or so.

Problem w/ the first 2 gears on the W55 is that "numerically" they are too low. Motor & turbo will spin up faster, but in about 4 seconds or possibly less, it will be time to shift again. It basically follows the same principal (more or less) of peeps who have done 7M-GTE conversions, but they are still using their 4.30 rear & they want to switch to a 3.73 or higher ratio (ie: 3.73 or less).

Compare the differences between the W55, the W58 & the R154. The proof is there.

aussiepete
05-03-2006, 06:31 AM
i originally bought the w55 for a project i was working on involving my toyota 4runner which i stuck a 7mgte into.it kept breaking g52 transmissions so i tried to setup a divorced transfer case but decided my time and money would be better spent on a mark2 supra instead.i read about the gear ratios ages ago thats why i bought it for a 4wd looking for the lower gears,just wasnt sure how different it would be to a w57-58 .cheers thanks for the advice.

jtamulis
05-03-2006, 09:06 PM
I think a W55 with its shorter 1st and second would ROCK in a MKII with
3.73s. You get the pelout burnout fun of the lower gears with the high end
of the 3.73s.

Jeff

Peewee
05-03-2006, 09:26 PM
Comparing a W55 with a 3.73 to a W58 with a 4.1 you get the following results.

.....W55...W58...Difference
1st .58 ....57 .... 1
2nd 100 ...99 .... 1
3rd 149 ...147 ... 2
4th 206 ...187 ... 19
5th 242 ...239 ... 3

(kph@6500rpm)

As you can see, there is fvck all difference (cept 4th)

Now, comparing it the other way (W58 with 3.73 vs W55 with 4.1)

.....W55...W58 ...Difference
1st .53 ....63 .... 10
2nd 91 ....109 ... 18
3rd 135 ...162 ... 27
4th 187 ...206 ... 19
5th 220 ...263 ... 43

(kph@6500rpm)


Now try and work out why Toyota almost always released a W55 with a 4.3 or 4.556 diff.

aussiepete
05-04-2006, 07:12 AM
hmmmm i wonder if doing the w55 /3:73 combo takes any extra strain off the gearbox or whether it increases the strain.?which combo will help the gearbox last that little bit longer
w55/3:73?
w58/4:10?

MA61@Finland
05-17-2006, 03:41 PM
hmmmm i wonder if doing the w55 /3:73 combo takes any extra strain off the gearbox or whether it increases the strain.?which combo will help the gearbox last that little bit longer
w55/3:73?
w58/4:10?

Shorter diff will decrease stress from your transmission. I have now W58 / 3.73 instead of stock 4.30 wich was from my opinnion too short even it had better LSD. Not so sure how this combo will last with 1JZ-GTE and how good those long ratios will be with that? I know few high powered cars here with stock W58 transmissions (even 1 +700hp 3S-GTE Corolla etc.) and heard only good about their ability take BIG hp. So some says totally different than others? :/

kjb
05-17-2006, 06:07 PM
Not so sure how this combo will last with 1JZ-GTE
Sorry for thread jack but 1JZ-GTE in a MA61 in Finland huh? How're you gonna get that past the authorities?

MA61@Finland
05-20-2006, 01:43 PM
Sorry for thread jack but 1JZ-GTE in a MA61 in Finland huh? How're you gonna get that past the authorities?

That might be big problem! First I will try to get it dynoed below 204hp and use some inlet restrictor in the inspection. 1 stupid rule in Finland is that you can only rise cars power output 20% from original without expensive special permission from authorities! Not so sure will it pass, but going to try everything to get it street legal in Finland. ;)