SDS (Simple Digital Systems)

[Dangerous Ken]

I'm going this route, and looking to get interest for a purchase in May.

http://www.sdsefi.com/

I'm posting this not only for the people interested in SDS, but check out the GREAT tech pages applicable to every aftermarket system. Straight No Bull Informatin.

The '6E' would be for N/A
The '6F' would be for Turbo (coilpacks)

I've got three definates on board now so that's a 15% discount.
Two more and we all enjoy a 20% discount.

Ken

[rabidchimp.com]

Ken....I was seriously considering that stand alone system. RaceTech/SDS is a great company.the guys know their shit, are super professional..and the system is really easy to use. There are a lot of fast cars out there with this stuff. I would love to host this as a group buy..if you don't mind, because I'd love to market their stuff.... I've just never had the cash to do what they need for a buy-in.
-Aaron

[Dangerous Ken]

What it comes down to is getting this system at the best price.
If the dealer buy in is 10 units, I don't see that demand here.

So I've secured the the best price I can with Three commitals to purchase in May.
If there is interest for a few more units, we 'group' together for a few more $$ savings.

Aaron, do your research, if you can offer the same discounted price without committing yourself so many units deep, I could just as well purchase from you.

Ken

[Crocket]

Ken,

I've been following SDS for years now with the intent on buying their product too. Problem is my car still won't be up and running for quite some time, so I wasn't planning on buying this for awhile, although if you get a few more interested I would probably get it now for the 20% discount. Any chance in delaying this at all? If not, I still may be interested, but can't commit just yet, give me a few weeks, thanks.

Sonny

[Dangerous Ken]

Sonny,

There is no 'rush' really.
I put a May purchase date out there, but it could be June.

Since we were graced with this new forum area, I just made more people aware of a system a few of us were looking at, and a possible date months in the future where we can combine our resources to get a better price.

The three of us committed all have cars that need to get 'up and running' before the SDS system can be installed.

To those that might not know, the SDS guys used an 82 Supra to develop their system. They got the the maps, wire harness', wire lengths, and sensors ready for simple installation.

Their 82 5mge gets 36 mpg on the highway...
If that is 10 miles More than you are getting now, at $2.25 a gallon, the system will pay for itself in 11,000 miles. That's with a significant power gains too.

Ken

[drftsupramk2]

I Am Interested In One Around That Time

[Crocket]

Sonny,

Their 82 5mge gets 36 mpg on the highway...
If that is 10 miles More than you are getting now, at $2.25 a gallon, the system will pay for itself in 11,000 miles. That's with a significant power gains too.

Ken

And that was with a well used 5M-GE with one weak cylinder to boot.

Sonny

[4SFED]

I'm in for another unit. I have a 6F on my 85 and I want to get the 6E/MSD for my 81.

[mitchred88]

Ken....I was seriously considering that stand alone system. RaceTech/SDS is a great company.the guys know their shit, are super professional..and the system is really easy to use. There are a lot of fast cars out there with this stuff. I would love to host this as a group buy..if you don't mind, because I'd love to market their stuff.... I've just never had the cash to do what they need for a buy-in.
-Aaron
Aaron did you by any chance have anything to do with building the hall sensor mount for pat hobbs mark 3? If so it works great. Can you duplicate it?

[StanS]

They get 36mpg at what speed? I thought that at constant speed you can't get better mileage than stoich which stock already runs at if it runs closed loop. At hi speeds the load gets hi enough so the loop opens (toy doesn't say where). SDS advances the spark more??to get more power??

[Dangerous Ken]

Stan,

Go to the tech pages and read for a few weeks. :D

Link in first post.

Ken

[StanS]

Was just doing that and couldn't even find 6E system for NA. Going back for some more>

[mitchred88]

http://www.sdsefi.com/em4e14.pdf Give this a try :)

[StanS]

Just skimmed it. Only gain in mileage i can see is due to better spark than stock and better advance map than stock. Still don't see how advance map would be any better than stock and stronger spark would be any better than a well maintained stock ignition system for normal (say up to 75-80 mph) hiway driving. I remember toy claiming auto's were getting 30mpg when new. Still, at what highway driving conditions was 36mpg achieved?

Also, we now have iridium plugs which last forever and, i believe, require less voltage and energy for a good spark so will tolerate some ignition degradation.

[Dave A.]

Great! I just finished skimming the tech info. on the SDS system, typed a lengthy reply to this thread, and was just about to click the send button when I suddenly lost power to my computer. :mofomad: Man that is frustarting! My laptop battery is good, but I don't have a UPS connected to my cable modem. Arghhh! Nothing like learning the hard way! :)

To re-cap part of my reply, I'd have to say that the SDS system appears to be a more simplified version of the Megasquirt system with fewer PCB revisions and Beta/experimental software to fuss with ... and trust. The K.I.S.S. approach has long been my philosophy in designing a good product, and so far the SDS system appears to be much simpler than the MS system in several respects. The heart of the SDS system appears to be a pre-assembled unit that comes with a 1-year warranty. Not bad! Plus, if airplane pilots are indeed trusting their lives to the SDS system at 10,000 feet, then the system must be pretty rock solid and quite versatile, while at the same time being somewhat less sophisticated and experimentally sloppy in comparison to the MS system. :)

Stan,
I'm wondering if the increase in MPG under cruising conditions is due at least in part to an increase in VE and cylinder filling combined with a custom tailored spark advance map? What do you think? Others?


< ------- clicking the send button now "before" the power drops out again. :)

[Carlos Brown]

Gentlemen (Stan S),

Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I am not looking to install this system for an increase in gas mileage, I am looking at the increased HP potential and tunability. Here is a link to the 82 test vehicle used and the results: http://www.sdsefi.com/features/supra82.htm .

Regards,

Carlos

[Dave A.]

The test article for the 82 MKII states a 15 HP improvement over stock with the AFM removed and the SDS system installed. I suppose if the system can increase HP output by 15 HP in the top end and also improve gas mileage to 30+ MPG while cruising at 70-80 MPH that it can't be all bad. OTOH, I suspect that the same power improvement could be had for the same amount of $$ or less w/o using the SDS system. Freeing up the exhaust flow with an aftermarket cat-back system alone has been well proven to provide a respectable gain in power w/o modifying or replacing the stock fuel or air intake system. The only advantage that I see so far by investing $$ in the SDS system is the possibility of gaining some extra fuel mileage that a cat-back system alone may not provide.

[discoelk]

<<<<was reading up on these guys a few weeks ago. I would definatly be in for a group buy.

[Carlos Brown]

Dave,

Imagine the over-all HP gain if you perform the cat-back, Intake, etc., and SDS system!!!

Carlos

[Crocket]

........ OTOH, I suspect that the same power improvement could be had for the same amount of $$ or less w/o using the SDS system. Freeing up the exhaust flow with an aftermarket cat-back system alone has been well proven to provide a respectable gain in power w/o modifying or replacing the stock fuel or air intake system. The only advantage that I see so far by investing $$ in the SDS system is the possibility of gaining some extra fuel mileage that a cat-back system alone may not provide.

Interesting view point................although I assume you mean the above statement is regarding naturally aspirated cars only? As I'm sure you already know the real reason/advantage for using the SDS EMS (or any other for that matter) is not for the 15hp you'll get right off the bat, or for the slightly better fuel economy you'll see, but for the tuning ability it gives you when big mods are planned and for the margin of safety it gives when doing these mods. Yes, you could get 15hp by doing just intake and exhaust. Or you could get maybe 30hp doing them in conjunction with the SDS (or similar). For us MKIIers, the other real big advantage is the fact that we get to toss the air flow meter away once and for all.

Sonny

[StanS]

If you remove AFM you should get 15hp+ on na if you found some other means to control the engine (map or maf). Both Russ and Matti have independently stated this. The afm is a big breathing constrictor. But, as I thought that i stated last night, the 6mg has a longer stroke so I could see some potential for improvement there since the 5mg ecu, that all 6mg owners on this list use, spark map is set up for the shorter stroke 5mg. Could also be that there's nothing to be gained there either. Also, there could/should be some gain with fuel control. Depends upon your application/setup.
Maybe for 6mg na controlled by the 5mg ecu that you want to retard the spark a few degrees to place the 6mg piston in the same location in the cycle that the 5mg would be at when the burn is nearing completion (max force on piston). Someone should compare/find out the optimum burn end location for both engines. Maybe this could be accomplished by using hi test (for the rich guys who own exxon stock) to retard the burn. Has anyone ever dynoed a 5mg with hi test gas? iirc, someone said that you lose a few hp.

[Dangerous Ken]

My intended application for the SDS is a N/A 6mge.
I have access to a 6m ecu, but it doesn't matter as with the SDS, you can tune it to your hearts content.
Optimistically speaking, there is no reason the 100 hp / liter can't be matched like the BMW M3s, with proper air and fuel delivery and SDS in control.

Ken

[mitchred88]

It should be pointed out that the 82 test vehicle was running the em4-6f which means no distributer no afm and no factory ecu. coil packs are mounted in the factory coil location. As far as gas milage I don't know for sure but I have had some dealings with the guys at racetech and have found them to be straight up and professional so I think thier claims are accurate. I'm with Carlos on this I like the sds for it's tunability and horsepower gains. One other thing is thier support is awsome. I sent my em4-6f version 11 in to have it upgraded to version 14 and add support for a knock sensor. They did the upgrades bench tested it and had it back to me in about a week.

[Dave A.]

Dave,

Imagine the over-all HP gain if you perform the cat-back, Intake, etc., and SDS system!!!

Carlos




Good point! Now why didn't I think about that in the first place. :rolleyes: :) Added performance with some increase in MPG on a stock 82 NA 5MGE is one thing, but being able to run the SDS system in place of the stock ECU and AFM on a highly modified 5MGE makes the possibilities look even better. Has anyone done a comparison between the SDS system and the Megasquirt system? How many pilots are flying with the MS compared to the SDS?? I'm still leaning towards the SDS system as being the more tried and true and reliable system at ths point, but I still have more reading to do.

[Junkie]

If you re-read the upper paragraph,final output in that configuration,with tuning,was 175hp,a gain of 30,with a fairly plain 82.

Stan,just so you know I'm on it...as soon as I get a clutch in my 85,it's going to the dyno for several tests,including the 5m/6m ecu swap.We also have 3 6m cars that all want a crack at it,all car have different mods,should be interesting.
Then,because I have the parts,before I swap in a 6m,and SDS,I'm going to wire in a complete set of 7m electronics and an S-AFC.I'll make pulls with every Major component swap,just for the info from 1 control car.

Personaly,I think I'm after the F unit,distributorless ign. is pretty sweet :D I figure get the full meal deal,then if I want boost,it's just a matter of adding the turbo.

[supra_toy]

Nitrous retard and tuning for your turbo... I've been looking at both the SDS and the MS systems for a while now. They both have their advantages and draw backs.

will (watching thread)

[Dangerous Ken]

The test article for the 82 MKII states a 15 HP improvement over stock with the AFM removed and the SDS system installed. I suppose if the system can increase HP output by 15 HP in the top end and also improve gas mileage to 30+ MPG while cruising at 70-80 MPH that it can't be all bad.

Dave,

The test 82 was tuned for 87! octane, with stock intake, and 2" :rolleyes: exhaust because '2.25" was too loud'.

A good control for what you get just getting rid of the AFM and STOCK everything else (no breathing mods, no cams for instance).

Ken

[StanS]

The 15hp gain is all from the afm removal. Matti and Russ started with 200 and 210hp engines and got 40 and 45 hp iirc and at that time when the sds system was first posted on the yahoo list i calculated (when i knew how) that 15hp on 130hp engine was the projected gain for afm removal. I'm saying that the sds doesn't improve a stock engine. toy designed it well. The good news is that we all have breathing mods at the minimum and we need different maps (both) than stock for the engines to run optimally open loop, specially when all but one or two of us aren't even running the correct ecu for the engine.

[mitchred88]

They get 36mpg at what speed? I thought that at constant speed you can't get better mileage than stoich which stock already runs at if it runs closed loop. At hi speeds the load gets hi enough so the loop opens (toy doesn't say where). SDS advances the spark more??to get more power??If I understand what they are doing I think the improved mileage is being gained by programing fuel cut based on load. You can program fuel cut based on throttle position or on map depending on which set up you use. I could be wrong but I think that is what they did to improve mileage.

[canadian_psyko]

... I thought that at constant speed you can't get better mileage than stoich which stock already runs at if it runs closed loop. ...


Slightly off the initial topic, but from the reding I've done, most engines can be tuned to 16-17:1 AFR at cruise.

MSefi forums link (http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=65617&highlight=lean+cruise+tuning#65617) << best explanation I could find in short time.

SDS does have great tech pages though.

[4SFED]

I've been watching SDS for many years and have been using their product for a couple years. their writeup on the 82 Supra test vehicle is a 'Reader's Digest Condensed Version' of what they originally had, they condensed it a couple years ago when they retired the vehicle. I seem to recall that the mpg figures quoted were from back when the Canadian Imperial Gallon was in use, so it's a little off from the US gallon. I will email SDS and find out for sure - they are very good about answering mail - no matter what you ask them or comment about.

[Carlos Brown]

Ken,

I am definitely in on this - as you already know! I would also like to state for the record that I looking at pure HP potential and tunability with this system. True, a 15HP gain can probably be realized by eliminating the AFM (and I am counting on no less than that), but how many folks have successfully managed this elimination and maintained a reasonable level of tunability? I am not looking at a 175 HP NA (I am already north of that), I am looking to utilize this system in a quest to move toward 250+ HP in NA form. When I become concerned about saving fuel I will buy a Corolla!

Regards,

Carlos

[discoelk]

only thing is, how much do the 3.73s help out on the highway? What kinda milage would you get with 4.10s or even 4.30s?(just for those who care, im with carlos, ill buy a civic if I want gas milage)

[Junkie]

Thanks for stating it so Mildly Carlos :D


<----drives Ken's Supra for MPG :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz:

[Dangerous Ken]

<----drives Ken's Supra for MPG :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz:

Hey now, don't make fun of the ONLY supra in the seven combined that is on the road.

(on topic)
SDS would go on two that are down at the moment because of laziness :rolleyes: .

disco, the coffe getter 84 L type gets 27 mpg on the highway with an auto on 4.10s. Every mkII enthusiast needs to have a RUNNING mkII when embarking on a SDS project car.

Ken

[Crocket]

Actually, a question just popped into my head regarding this possible group buy. Do all the systems (ie. each individual order) have to be the same, or can they all be different? I ask because depending on what route people go (turbo or na), would require a different set-up to their system. For example: coil pack or distributor...........MAP or TPS enrichment..............SDS (GM) sensors or Toyota........... how about the actual settings on the computer itself. They get pre-programmed with baseline values based on each persons particulars. So how will this work exactly? Thanks,

Sonny

[StanS]

I'm looking for na hp too, not mileage, but they're inter-related as you're well aware. And I'm not suggesting that you don't use sds. Just read the article whose address Carlos posted. (Got too many things going on in my life right now.) And good daily driving results over the whole temperature range (-30C to +35C) if tuning is not changed which is the way that I interpret it, is impressive. I agree that tuneability is neccessary to get the full potential of the mods that we make.

In the first sentence of the last paragraph of the earliest entry they say " Fuel economy appears to be similar to stock, so far getting about 18- 20mpg in hard city use. On a highway trip, the car got 36 mpg cruising between 70 and 80 mph." The paragraph above it says "Duty cycle hits 72% which equates to 141 HP roughly which is about 160 corrected at sea level." They're doing the road testing at altitude and that's where the superb mileage (for a sea level guy) comes from. less windage loss.

Earlier in this thread someone stated that there's a 30hp increase when comparing the 82 sds fitted to stock. imo, it should be compared to an 84-86 for a meaningful comparison, of sds vs 5mg ecu control, the only difference being the D and O intake runners. 15 hp for
upgrading the 82 to an 84-6 and 15 hp for afm removal and get a few back for gains with old runners.

Also, if you run the engine away from stoich for better mileage as someone suggested, you'll fail emissions.

[Carlos Brown]

Gentlemen,

Just in case you guys are interested in checking out a few fuel maps for the 82 test vehicle, here you go... You will notice that this system uses either a TPS or MAP sensor for fuel enrichment. "There is no MAF sensor to install!" When using the TPS, you just have to assure that a potentiometer style unit is utilized.

Scroll down: http://www.sdsefi.com/fuelmaps.htm .

"Is this simple or what?" Oh and by the way, "Did you guys see those acceleration improvements?"

Regards,

Carlos

[StanS]

Carlos
I went to read the map, which I'm completely unfamiliar with, for the 82 Supe using the MAP controlled enricher. Is the map reading explained somewhere? Here's my questions if you want to take the time to explain. I interpret that the first column as manifold pressure (- inches of Hg) but what's the second number in the column. The second column is rpm and fuel (cc/min or some arbitrary enrichment number?). Third column is coolant temp. Are the 2 numbers the range of coolant temp. That completes the fuel map. The fourth column is mani pressure for the spark map??? What's RET mean and what's the second number in the column mean? RPM and advance in the next column. Last column is "START" with 2 numbers. What's that mean? Why don't (or can't) they make both maps at the same operating points (rpm and mani pressure)? Also, where's the acceleration numbers that you're referring to.

[mitchred88]

Carlos
I went to read the map, which I'm completely unfamiliar with, for the 82 Supe using the MAP controlled enricher. Is the map reading explained somewhere? Here's my questions if you want to take the time to explain. I interpret that the first column as manifold pressure (- inches of Hg) but what's the second number in the column. The second column is rpm and fuel (cc/min or some arbitrary enrichment number?). Third column is coolant temp. Are the 2 numbers the range of coolant temp. That completes the fuel map. The fourth column is mani pressure for the spark map??? What's RET mean and what's the second number in the column mean? RPM and advance in the next column. Last column is "START" with 2 numbers. What's that mean? Why don't (or can't) they make both maps at the same operating points (rpm and mani pressure)? Also, where's the acceleration numbers that you're referring to.
The first number in each column is a reading from the respective sensor. The second number is user defined using the sds programmer. I.E.map of -28.8 = a fuel setting of 1. Low map = off throttle = no need to pump fuel.Rpm/fuel is the amount of fuel at the designated rpm. You can see they set fuel cut at 7000 rpm. Water temp refers to fuel adjustment for engine temp. Retard is used to retard the spark mostly used for boost applications. RPM/IGN is ign timing before top dead center at rpm. Start is for cold start enrichment using ambient air temp in the first row. The accel numbers Carlos mentioned are I believe at the bottom of the article about the 82. Hope this helps. :)

[Carlos Brown]

Stan,

Give these two articles a shot. The acceleration chart compares stock fuel equipped vehicle to SDS equipped vehicle (Supra). The second site will include some basic set-up information and an over-view of system programming.

http://www.sdsefi.com/features/supra82.htm (scroll down about mid page to table "L-Jet vs. SDS).

http://www.sdsefi.com/em4e14.pdf - (read from page 10....).

Regards,

Carlos

[cheappower82]

SDS sounds interesting due to the ease of tuning, but I have a few issues that disturb me.

First, the flexibility: if you choose em-4e, you're locked in to that system. no swapping to a distributorless setup without buying the em-4f (is that right?)

Second is the price: fuel and ignition control for $1100+. Then you have to buy 'options' like knock and F idle. I think I'd choose AEM for a little more cash.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to see how the system works; maybe someone with SDS will appear at the dyno here in the near future

[SupraFiend]

Well I'm getting into this thread a little late, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on the whole milage debate.

I've long belived that an 84+ mk2 with a 5m in a perfect state of tune (no internal carbon depoists, balanced injectors, perfect compression, good 02 sensor) with a 3.72 diff could get at least an honest 30mpg in the right enviroment. I also belive that the 82s, and maybe 83s, have an inferior efi system that isn't effiecient as that of the later cars. I have some figures to back that up. I used to own an 82 supra that I swapped a low milage 5m from an 88 cressida into. Besides a 2.25 cat back with a straight through muffler, the car was stock mechanicaly. I refreshed the head, lapped the valves, and did some port matching and a little polish. That motor ran like new and made wicked power (never dynoed unfortuantly). Keep in mind, these SDS guys are located in Alberta, Canadian flat prarie country, and their car has a 3.72 diff as well. On a trip to Saskatchewan (more prarie) with my 82, I got 700kms out of a single tank. I never refilled as I was delivering the car to the new owner so I couldn't get an exact mpg number, but rough calculations of the kms on that tank say I got about 29mpg, the best I've ever done in a mk2.

Now I also used to own an 85 that was bone stock and had some recent head work done. It also ran like new. On a road trip in BC I recorded 28 mpg on one tank, thats with 4.3s. So I figure 30+ is possible with a mint 84+5m and a 3.72 diff. Add in an efi system that lest you run leaner then 14.7 and 36mpg seems quite attainable. FYI Honda sold lean burn civics for a bit, back in 93 I belive. They actually came with wide band heated sensors and the efi system let them run around 15.3 or so for improved gas milage. They would have run leaner, but emmisions would have suffered.

This SDS system seems pretty cool. I like the no laptop needed bit. If I go standalone though, MS is a little bit more attractive to me. I'd rather be able to resuse most of the stock sensors, I'm not a big fan of speed density or just map sensors, and I'm a programmer and like the idea of being able to dick around with the ecu code myself. I'm also cheap :)

[KesekiSupra]

question on this system, really my only question, would the group buy will is offering on his crank triggers work with this setup as well? or possibly work rather? i dont see why not. but then again, im new to this stuff

[4SFED]

question on this system, really my only question, would the group buy will is offering on his crank triggers work with this setup as well? or possibly work rather? i dont see why not. but then again, im new to this stuff
They're both wasted-spark, crank-triggered, distributorless ignition systems (sds F system). But
The edis is a 36-1 with the missing tooth of the 36 indicating the crankshaft position to the edis once every 360 degrees.
The SDS F system uses 3 triggering magnets and a synch magnet with a Hall sensor for crankshaft position. The synch magnet tells the computer via the Hall sensor which coil to fire and the three trigger magnets update the specific conditions every 120 degrees of rotation.
I mounted my magnets on the backside of the crank pulley to make mounting the sensor to the engine that much easier - I dont have to worry about fanbelts and the mount is solid right next to the block instead of sticking out about 4 inches or the width of the pulley. There can be no vibration or deflection - it's strong enough to lift the whole engine.
So, I don't think you would want to use this wheel to mount your magnets for SDS. I wouldn't.

[MightyAl]

question on this system, really my only question, would the group buy will is offering on his crank triggers work with this setup as well? or possibly work rather? i dont see why not. but then again, im new to this stuff

That is one of the things I did not like about the SDS. The lack of flexibilty on trigger options. You had to use their specific crank trigger and no other. Now I understand that this decreases cost and complexitiy but I like to keep machine work to a minimum when I am installing a standalone. SDS is a cheap alternative to a lot of the others and will do just fine in most applications. The whole magnet thing on the crank is a big turn off for me but it is merely a personal preference. I also prefer a nice graphical interface to an LCD in a box. There are downsides and upsides to the comprimises made in which a big one is cost and low complexity.

[Supra_devil]

recently tuned an SDS equipped mk3 (with 2jz and 6 speed).
the base settings where done by the shop that installed it, but the fuel maps were all over the place.

In about 30 minutes we had the engine tuned within .2 AFR of where we wanted from 2000-7000 rpm. I have yet to look too closely at what he has set for ignition timing, but from the glance i took before it looked good enough to not blow his shit up, lol.

the handheld programmer made it extremely easy, needed to do a couple runs to get it bang on, but damn it i was very impressed how easy it was. I think if i go standalone i would consider it for the ease of tuning alone.

[Dangerous Ken]

*BUMP*

I'm reviving this thread bacause there's two of us (Carlos and I) that are going SDS.

The current state is to purchase at 10% discount for the two systems on December 1st, 2006. I know this is short notice, but considering this thread was started 6 months ago...

Just one more gets us to a 15% discount.

Enough of the 'keyboard tuning', we are going forward.

The details of the systems (options and such) I'm leaving in the very capable hands of Carlos. We are going after N/A 5m / 6m in the mid 200 rwhp, but SDS can certainly accomodate a turbo setup as well.

Carlos is a very honorable and busy man so I ask that you PM only if you are serious about dropping around $1000 on December 1st.

This message is a 'call to action' for Purchase and not a revival of the tuning banter. There will certainly be time later to post up our results.

Ken

[Don L.]

Ken and Carlos, best of luck in the SDS project! Hope to follow your progress. I have a SDS kit in my closet right now, getting 0 mpg. Planning to do the install sometime this winter. Need to read up a bunch on the tuning stuff, and I'm optimistically expecting a 30 hp gain and just one more mod to get me closer to that 200rwhp goal. This is with stock cams, pistons, and valves, 5mge motor limited to autox rules. Still, I believe the SDS system has tremendous promise for my motor, letting it breath much better at higher rpms. I'm looking for hp and torque across the rpm band.

Don L.
'84 Supra
autox comeback in '07

[Crocket]

A question for Ken/Carlos,

to get the 15% discount, you need another participant. Do all three systems have to be indentical, or even similar for that matter? Is SDS looking at packaging three similar systems and shipping them out asap, or can they be as different as night and day, and shipped whenever? The reason I ask is because I too will be going with an SDS. The only problem is I don't need it now, nor am I positive about which model and options I want (I keep bouncing back and forth on this issue, turbo or NA?). Anyway, let me know when you get a chance, and I'll let you know if I'm in now or later.

Sonny

[Nogoodnik]

I've seen that claim of better mileage and performance. It sounds awesome. How much are these things? Are they legal? I'm in california and you'd surprised what's illegal here. Wait... there are more pages. Lemme read on before I ask something really stupid.

[SilverMk2]

....Are they legal? I'm in california....

No LOL :hahano:

[Carlos Brown]

Gentlemen,

I have compiled at list of SDS responses that might prove helpful in setting up and ordering the most appropriate system & options for your vehicle. The options listed below are those that will require set-up during SDS build and programming. Other options can be purchased separately at a later date. This post is intended soley for the purpose(s) listed above and is not intended to serve as a tech page. For additional technical information, please reference the beginning of this thread or the SDS website.

Additional information regarding the options are listed here http://www.sdsefi.com?specific.html .

Response #1: SDS systems are available at group discounts from 10&#37;(2-3) 15%(4-5) & 20%(6-10). These systems "do not need" to be configured the same or have the same options in order to qualify for the discounts. There is also a 5% discount for single (1-unit) purchases, but this discount does not apply to Group Buys.

Response #2: Most factory ECU functions are lost when installing the SDS system. Only the factory TPS (potentiometer style), Knock Sensor, and O2 Sensors can be retained. Any additional ECU functions will either be eliminated or will need to be replaced with suitable units.

TPS units from most vehicles can be utilized as long as they are potentiometer style units. SDS does sell an optional TPS for $78, but it is a "D" drive unit.

Knock Sensors (OEM) can be used with SDS system. To wire SDS for this option the cost is $30. To add SDS sensor the cost is $105.

MAP sensors will need to be utilized with each of the SDS systems. SDS has MAP sensors selling for $64-$90 depending on range 1-3 Bar. It is strongly recommended that you use the MAP sensor for programming unless your engine includes wild cams and cannot maintain a vacuum of 12" or greater.

O2 Sensor function of the SDS system is compatible with OEM or wideband O2 sensors (program selection). Replacement units in heated and non-heated can be purchased from SDS (each including bung). There is also a stand-alone wideband O2 sensor and display available from SDS. This system does not require special set-up for the SDS ignition.

Idle Speed Control Valve function is lost with addition of SDS unit. A fast idle option is available from SDS for $84. This option can also be made to operate idle up for AC use (may require an additional set-up to include AC).

The OEM fuel pump relay will not function once the AFM has been removed. Although the pump can be wired to run with ignition on, SDS offers an option that will pressurize system for 2.8 sec, and will shut down pump if no crank revolutions are detected (great safety feature). Option $30.

For those looking to run Superchargers, there is an additional relay option available from SDS for $30. Please refer to SDS link for additional options.

The OEM Cold Start Injection (CSI) function is lost after installing the SDS system, however a supplemental fuel enrichment program that uses the primary injectors is built in and can be set up for your specific needs.

Response #3: ONLY D or L-Jetronic injector clips are available for wire harness development. Your personal clips can be adapted as long as there is several inches of wire present or they can be installed / re-pinned by you personally. Please verify style of injectors clips required prior to finalizing order. SDS claims to only provide MKII type clips. Later model oval shaped clips are not available through SDS.

Response #4: Spark Plug wires must be suppression style. Do not use solid core wires, Nology wires, or non-suppression wires. Accel, Magnecor, MSD, etc. are rocommended.

Response #5: Systems can be built in 1-3 days and payments can be made online by credit card or by international money order / cashiers check. Manufacturing begins once all monies are received and units are shipped directly from SDS to your home. Unit prices are listed on SDS website along with prices for available options.

For those looking to go turbo, SDS offers a EIC (Extra Injector Control) that can drive 2 or 4 additional injectors. This is a stand-alone system that includes controller, wiring, and bosses.

http://www.sdsefi.com/prices.html

P.S. I am looking at (approximately) a $1,400 system with five options (6-options when counting purchase of MAP sensor).

I will be in touch with SDS sometime during the week of Nov 26. Please present your questions ASAP.

Regards,

Carlos

[Crocket]

*BUMP*

I'm reviving this thread bacause there's two of us (Carlos and I) that are going SDS.

The current state is to purchase at 10% discount for the two systems on December 1st, 2006. I know this is short notice, but considering this thread was started 6 months ago...

Just one more gets us to a 15% discount..............

Ken

Based on Carlos' last post, don't you need two more people to get the 15% discount? Seems like even if I join now, we are still stuck with a 10% rebate, correct?

Sonny

EDIT: Just pulled this off the SDS site, towards the bottom of Carlos link above:

GroupBuys:

As of April 15/05 the minumum number of full systems to qualify for a group buy is 5 at 15% off. Maximum discount for a group buy is 20% with at least 10 systems required to be ordered.

[Dangerous Ken]

Just above the Group Buy section is this:


Discounts

Volume discounts are available based on cumulative quantities purchased. We do not extend discounts to anyone or any company ordering just 1 system except for our 5% cash discount on retail orders. Full dealer discounts are available only to those companies who have ordered at least 10 systems and who have been approved by us. In certain cases, full discounts will not be extended to companies in the same proximity to an existing dealer to protect the existing dealer's business. The discount schedule is as follows:

2 systems- 10%
3-4 systems- 15%
5-10 systems- 20%
Over 10 systems- 25% which is the full dealer discount


I'm just pointing out to everyone that it's a chance to get at least 10% off.
A chance to save over $100.
No need to argue semantics, shit or get off the pot.

Ken

[Carlos Brown]

Sonny,

Yes, I also caught the "5-unit minimum" to qualify for group discounts. This is certainly different than the group discounts listed elsewhere on the SDS webpage.

My recent post / comment (regarding group discounts) was based on an email received November 23, 2006, from Ross Farnham of SDS. His comments were identical to those in my recent post (10% 2-3, 15% 4-5, 20% 6-10).

Regards,

Carlos

[Crocket]

Just above the Group Buy section is this:



I'm just pointing out to everyone that it's a chance to get at least 10% off.
A chance to save over $100.
No need to argue semantics, shit or get off the pot.

Ken

Ken,
I'm not arguing semantics. I just didn't want to be responsible for you and Carlos missing out on a potential 15% discount. Having said that, I'm getting off the pot, happy?

Carlos,
thanks alot for your time and feeback with the above write-up. Good luck on your build, I have decided to wait until I'm actually ready to install this system before investing in it. I can live with a 10% loss, the 15% would of been a little harder to pass on though.

Sonny