Supra ran rough, now not at all

[fbmustang1969]

Last week I was running the supra hard and by the time I got home, it felt as though it was "missing". Drove it again on Monday, ran a bit worse, Tuesday, barely made it to work. No power what so ever. Thursday, the supra would not stay running for more than a few seconds. Ran Dia Codes, "Check Engine", showed O2 as culpit, disconnected it, made no difference. This supra my wife and I bought is mostly original, even the muffler. What do you think the problem could be?

[Tanya]

possible fuel pump failure


please review this thread and go from there
http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=22285

[TOYMAN321]

:stupid:
Sounds like a fuel pump / fuel pressure issue

[fbmustang1969]

Ran a service wire from the fuel pump "check connector", can hear fuel run through the system, although the sound isn't a consistant sound, but more of a slow fluid movenment through the system with some pauses every 4 to 5 seconds. Found a device at the rear of the fuel rail (towards the firewall) that had a plastic cap on it, removed the cap and found a screw loose in the center of it, tighted it, didn't make a difference.

[Donn29]

either replace the pump or filter. But I'd check fuel pressure first.

[fbmustang1969]

How do you check the fuel pressure on the `85 5mge?

[Donn29]

Buy a guage....

[fbmustang1969]

I understand that part of using a gauge or gage. Where does the instrument hook up to?

[Donn29]

I'd assume after the FPR, I never had to figure that part out myself.

[fbmustang1969]

Its been a few months, still not running right. Changed the fuel pump, fuel filter, Distributor cap and rotor, spark plugs and wires. Set the crank at TDC, cams line up with marks on tower....but the rotor is facing #3. Is the common for the 5M-GE. The car ran fine before, distributor was never pulled out....
Advice?

[Tanya]

The rotor needs to be pointing at #1 with the crank set at "0" and cams lined up to their marks. Also, if you peer into the intake side cam tower by the oil cap, you should see the cam hole line up also when everything is correct.


Something happened somewhere, perhaps it sheered a dizzy tooth and skipped

[Gumboot]

you checked the compression?

[fbmustang1969]

Compression is good in all cylinders, the hole on the intake cam inside lined up, all looked good except the rotor is facing the #3. I tried to move the wires with #1 at the #3 position and followed the remaining firing order 153624, but the car ran the same, then moved the wires foward one more position, (now at the original #6), car didn't start, then the #1 wire at the original #5 position, car didn't start. Is it possible the distributor jumped?

[lechner]

I think it is #1 & #6 that are at TDC simultaneously, so this situation makes little sense. Have you verified that the #1 piston really is at TDC when the crank pulley says it is, by looking in the #1 plug hole or putting a long screwdriver in there so you can see what point it tops out at? You should be able to check the gearing where the distributor meets the cam just be removing the cam cover. It can be worked out without removing the TB, just not too easily. Even if that gearing looks good, I suppose I would reset the distributor and everything to TDC simultaneously and check the timing with a timing light to make sure it is steady and not readjusting itself, which would indicate a stripped crank key.

[4SFED]

... would indicate a stripped crank key.

You beat me to the punch - that's what popped into my mind when reading through this thread from the beginning just now.

[Tanya]

3 months on a bad crank key is a bit much.

it took a week from "running a little off" to "jumping time horrendously" when my crank key failed

[fbmustang1969]

How do I check if the key is stripped? If it is, easy to replace key... or do I have to replace the crank?

[Tanya]

Look down while the engine is running, see if you notice the crank pulley wobbling slightly, or anything else that looks out of adjustment. When my keyway went bad, it also made the pulley wobble and it ate up both my alternator and power steering belts.

Beyond that, you would need to remove the crank pulley and lower timing cover to check on how the keys are really doing. If the keys have flipped onto their side, they have most likely destroyed the crank snout.

[Supradad]

That's alot of work to if your not sure.
Try unbolting the cat converter at the front end and see if it runs better.
The back pressure will be a reason for it running bad if it's clogging up.
Even removing the oxygen sensor from the exhaust manifold will give the release of flow pressure needed to tell if that's the possible problem or not.
When the cat has a reason to start to get restricted it can go bad fast.
It's a thought.

[lechner]

If the crank key is stripped and the crank has shifted you will know by verifying TDC of #1 through the spark plug hole (I use a long screwdriver through the hole and it should move up and down as you turn the crank). If the piston really is at TDC when the crank pulley says it is, then the outer pulley and crank are still aligned. If the cams are also at TDC (you may need to advance the crank another 360 degrees), then the crank timing pulley is also still aligned as you are still in time.

the hole on the intake cam inside lined up, all looked good except the rotor is facing the #3. I tried to move the wires with #1 at the #3 position and followed the remaining firing order 153624, but the car ran the same, then moved the wires foward one more position, (now at the original #6), car didn't start, then the #1 wire at the original #5 position, car didn't start. Is it possible the distributor jumped?

Thinking about this some more, I realize that stripped distributor teeth are the only things that could result in the distributor pointing to #3 (after having previously been pointed to #1 & not having been removed since) when the hole in the cam visible through the oil lid says the cam is set to #1 TDC position. The crank key or even the timing belt could not alter the relationship between the distributor and the cam off which it is driven.

[Tanya]

^I already said that.



Something happened somewhere, perhaps it sheered a dizzy tooth and skipped

nobody listens to the silly female :x


lol

[Dargus]

^I already said that.



nobody listens to the silly female :x


lol

You didn't use your cool sig for those posts. Everyone listens with people with large sigs.

[lechner]

Yeah, I now think maybe the Silly Girl was right all along (trying to retract a few thoughts with that last post). I try to listen to them silly females, but I'm usually just too distracted by them to hear them....

[fbmustang1969]

I'll try to pull the distributor and see what's up with it. I've had that problem on my other car, 67 Mercury Cougar, where the Acell billet distributor shear its pin, but it quit running all together. Thanks for the advice. This is my first overhead cam engine, in fact two of those cams are up there, and never really had to deal with EFI, always had carbs.

[fbmustang1969]

Well I pulled the distributor, nothing seemed broke, reset everything to TDC, verified the piston was at TDC, both cams lined up, crank to 0 degrees, wires at firing order listed on cap, .... car still runs like crap. pulled one wire at a time from the cap, some wires killed the engine, others had no effect. To sum things up: new fuel pump, filter, cap, rotor, wires and plugs. Even disconnected the exhaust, no difference. Why isn't this supra running?

Frustrated in Ft Bliss....

[Tanya]

Hmmmm

Unplugging one wire and the engine dies? Odd. The 5M can run on 4/5 cylinders, sometimes 3 is pushing it. You may have 2 or more bad cylinders

You said your compresison was good, what were the exact #s?
Are your spark plugs fouling up? Any oil on them?

Ha, what a PITA it is trying to diagnose something over the net, it's never easy. Wish I could be there to help ya man. Would rather work on someone elses engine than stare at the hole in my block >.<

[lechner]

Yeah, this is one of those cases where 'reading' the plugs will probably tell you what you need to know. Your latest symptoms sound like some plugged injectors. Which wires do not make any difference when you pull them and which wires kill the engine? You might try cranking the engine without the spark plug wires connected and then check for fuel on the plugs.

[fbmustang1969]

I am kind of leaning towards the injectors now. The old fuel pump burnt out the old filter was rock solid, couldn't even blow through it, maybe something has plugged the injectors. If so, how do I check the individual injectors? Is there a way to clean them out while installed? or removed? Do the injectors receive a signal that can be checked? Thanks for all your help.

[donkey2]

Like lechner said, pretty much the only way to check to see if the injectors are all firing, is to disconnect the distributor(I always pull the coil wire), and crank it over a few times, then check the plugs to see which ones are wet. To get the injectors out, and check them for spray pattern, you have to remove the upper intake plenum, and disconnect the rail. From there it sin't os easy still, because the fuel lines are not very pliable, and I wound up fabbing up extension lines for the fuel return side, and flipping the rail over. You will need lits of rags for this, as it makes quite a mess, and as always when playing with fuel, be very careful about heat sources. At very least if you get to the point of pulling the upper plenum, check the wiring harness, and make sure the connectors are still in decent shape, and have good connections. Good luck.

Oh yeah I had a timing issue a while back, but it turned out to be the thermal sensor on the water neck, eh go fig. So unless you know some one with an endoscope, I'd start with the whole checking for wet plugs thing.

[fbmustang1969]

Thanks for the input. I hope its the injectors, and kinda of hope its not. I'll try an old school method using a screwdriver to my ear and hopefully hear or feel the injectors pulseing. If that doesn't work, then I'll pull the coil wire, crank the engine a few times, pull the plugs and see what's wet, just like all of you have mentioned...

[Donn29]

perhaps an exhaust valve is broken and stuck closed?

[Hermendez]

I had bad injector a few months back and it sucked. I replaced the whole lower intke runner with fuel rail that I had from an old 6m. Now it works great! I was fouling up 1 injector really fast and had terrible idle and loss of power. You should check out the tsrm. It shows how to check fuel pressure (at the cold start injector). You can also see what a pita it would be to test injectors without the SST shown in the book.
BTW- that thing with the plastic cap is the pulsation dampener.
And check for clogged exhaust like mentioned by supradad.
Once My car ran really rich and it was becuse the vane in the afm was stuck all the way open. Although this happened while it was apart and not from hard diriving.
Curious to know how your plugs look.
Good Luck

[fbmustang1969]

I have sinced changed the plugs to the correct ones. Remove some Autolites that were the wrong everything, but the electrodes looked normal on those. The only thing I've done lately is the listen to the injectors with a screwdriver while the car is running to hear if the injectors were pulsing...and they were. I guess next I'll go ahead and pull the coil, try to start the engine, and then check the plugs.
I just don't have a lot of time to work on this supra, so this has been a long event.

[fbmustang1969]

OK, latest update. Pulled the plugs and cleaned them all. Started engine, still runnning rough. Pulled plugs again:

#1:DRY
#2:WET
#3:WET
#4:WET
#5:WET
#6:DRY

Put plugs in, started again and pulled the wires from the distributor cap:

#1: Engine dies
#2: No change
#3: No change
#4: No change
#5: No change
#6: Engine dies

I'm stumped....

[4SFED]

You're running on cylinders 1 and 6. I'll think further on it. See how many of 2-5 you can pull and leave pulled while pulling the rest - hard to believe it's running on just two cylinders

[Yenko]

Possible timing problem?

[lechner]

If you take any of the #2-#5 plug wire ends and hold them 1/4" off a grounded surface as the engine cranks or runs, do they spark to the ground? I'm leaning towards pickup coil or other internal distributor problem.

[fbmustang1969]

All wires spark from the cap to the wires when I pull them one off at a time. I'll go check to see how many wires (#2 through #5) I can pull off and keep the engine running.
I used to have a Comet with a 200 straight six that I burnt up 4 sparks plugs on a trip back home. That engine was shaking pretty good...just like this supra's.

[fbmustang1969]

I also switched coils yesterday with my `67 cougar's, an Accel super coil. Made no difference.

[Tanya]

I have run a 5M consistantly on 4 cylinders... 3 cyl. is pushing it, running on 2 cylinders seems highly improbable...

I really wish I had a clue on what to tell you here....

[4SFED]

Also double or triple check the wires going to the right plugs. I am sure you've checked already but everyone's done it at one time or another - accidently swapping a couple wires around, like when pulling the distributor or changing the cap or wires, etc.

[fbmustang1969]

Believe me, the wires are correct. That's something I've done before. The only assumption I have is that the numbers on the cap are correct and the rotor turns clockwise inside the cap.

[lechner]

You said your compression was good, what were the exact #s?I'm curious too.

If it is missing, there are only 4 possible causes:
Fuel - The plugs are wet with fuel, gas is new
Spark - All 6 wires arc to the cap when removed, plugs & wires are new
Compression - Said you checked that
Timing - has been reset to correct, but plug order previously incorrect

As far as an I-6 running on only 2 cylinders, it will as long as they are opposite each other, which the #1 & #6 are, AND the compression in the other 4 cylinders isn't too high (as this force has to be overcome by the force of only 1 cylinder at a time). Just like bicycle pedals.

[donkey2]

So running on 1 and 6 perhaps, or just not so good on the other 4. Color of spark on 2-5? Timing belt condition? Condition of plug wires, are they sending spark juice to somewhere other than the plugs?

[fbmustang1969]

Timing belt looks goods, almost new. Saprk that jumps from cap to wires is white to blue. New spark plugs, new plug wires, new rotor, new distributor cap, new fuel pump and filter. Crank was set at TDC, both cams lined up to the their respective marks, distributor pulled and reset, coils swaped out....

[donkey2]

Sorry just geting back up to speed, I tried to find the answers in the rest of the thread, wasn't able to. Back to internal dist issue for starters, I am not sure how to find out, but if the injectors aren't firing correctly out of sequence per say, or worst case, your ecm is just very grumpy with you. I feel your pain on how confusing this is, i started with carbie's myself(73 Nova 383 stroker, 73 vw beetle to many mods to list) and the fuelie world got to me for a while.

[stubAdub]

when the fuel pump connector has been jumped with the key turned to the ON position i hear a clicking sound. it will click 2-3 times then stop. ill move the paper clip around and it will keep clicking while i move it. the sound seems to be coming from around the brake booster area. its hard to get my ear near it while im on the other side of the car. is this the sound i should here if the fuel pump is working correctly? if not what is this clicking sound?

[fbmustang1969]

When I jumped my connector, I heard the fuel as it returned through the lines. The clicking sound is something else that happens when the key is turned off.
Still haven't played around with my supra for a while, work has me busy and I really don't know what to check next.

[stubAdub]

actually the key was already in the on position before i jumped it. i can hear the fuel pump working inside the car. the clicking is coming from what it seems to be the the driver side fuse box.. ill know for sure when i have another person handy

[wjanusz]

You've mentioned that you're pulling the wires off the cap. Try pulling the wires off the plugs so you can verify that the spark is getting that far and not arcing somewhere.
You're getting fuel to all cylinders so it sounds like a spark problem to me. You're POSITIVE that the wires are routed correctly and in the right order?
I know you said you put new plugs in... try switching #1 and #6 with some of the others. This will VERIFY that the plugs are OK if the symptoms don't change.
Could the injectors for #2-5 be partially clogged? I'm just trying to think of anything else it could be. Igniter?
Good luck!

[Mk2 gold]

I have just had that problem with bad running engine and getting worse and worse
It was the little not in crankshaft front - pulling timingbelt and whell to generator..

Try check it. And good luck

HH

[fbmustang1969]

Here's what I've done:
-Spark plugs wires are new, in correct order, verified numerous times, moved the wires forward one slot and backwards one slot from the #1 position, would run from those positions. Did run when I swaped the #1 and #6 positions.
-Pulled distributor out, put back in with all marks lined up, TDC, both cams lined up and rotor at #1
-new spark plugs, all gapped correctly (NippoDenso)
-new rotor
-new distributor cap
-new fuel pump (Walbro)
-new fuel filter
-replaced coil (Accel Super coil)
-checked timing belt, looks great
-listened to injectors with long wooden screwdriver, all 6 pulseing
-pulled wires, one at a time, from cap: white-blue spark from all positions
-when wires pulled, #1 or 6 would kill the engine, all others-no change in engine sound
-pulled plugs after "running": #1,6 dry; all others wet

[Donn29]

sounds like bad timing or no spark in 2-5. pull off the cam covers and take a look. Try adding some grounds to the head itself.

[fbmustang1969]

Timing was set at the crank 0 degreees, both cams lined up with their respective marks, (dot on gear facing v notch on cam tower), distributor set in with rotor at #1, wires in order. Verified #1 was at TDC, compression stroke, spark comes out of cap in every position. Did I miss something in regards to timing?

[wjanusz]

Sounds like timing is good. The one thing that I would check is to pull wires at PLUGS. If the 2-5 wires are arcing it would look good at the cap but still not get to the plugs...

[SupraWes]

Blown head gasket, I bet money on it.

[fbmustang1969]

If it was a blown head gasket, wouldn't the cylinders still fire (the 2-5 cylinders have wet spark plugs, smell of gas), or wouldn't the oil water mix, or use water?

[4SFED]

Did you do a compression check?

[fbmustang1969]

Back again, pulled the injectors, #s 2 through 5 injectors plugged solid! Now I need a good cleaning service. Any recommendations?

[supkar]

Back again, pulled the injectors, #s 2 through 5 injectors plugged solid! Now I need a good cleaning service. Any recommendations?

Jeez, man, I didn't want to weight in and maybe confuse you. Others have given you great advice, but I felt like saying to you....".the only thing you haven't replaced is the injectors". Good thing you got that new filter, wonder how clean your gas tank is.
Re:Clicking sounds ...... Comes from idle speed control gadget sometimes. Jim King told me that yesterday when he did his coast drive. Not sure if that's the sound discussed in this thread though..
Sounds like we should do a healing circle on this Supra.

[jsn_ayers]

if the plugs are wet than the injectors are not pluged they are stuck open. i would just get new ones they are stuck and they may not be cleanable or it will do it again. also runing tank dry with the fuel line off and than filter that gas before putting it back in or pull the tank to get all that crap out if the rust is bad in the tank it can push through the filter and into the injectors. that is what presure testing is for to look for leaking injectors also not just for the fuel pump tests

[jsn_ayers]

Back again, pulled the injectors, #s 2 through 5 injectors plugged solid! Now I need a good cleaning service. Any recommendations?

there is a old thread on here that has some places to send them. its under the tech talk section

[fbmustang1969]

Thanks, sent the injectors to "WitchHunter Performance", hopefully the injectors come back and I can get this Supra back on the road. I have a new aftermarket fuel regulator, but it doesn't fit the factory banjo fittings. I was thinking of running some braided fuel hose lines to the new regulator. Does anyone know what size fuel fitting I would need from the fuel filter and to the fule rail?

[fbmustang1969]

It runs again! Problem was clogged pump, filter and injectors. Thanks to all who helped with these.:facesjump