Somebody PLEASE help me figure this crazy thing out

[dreys77]

Alright, car wouldn't run, but it'd start. Checked fuel pump, it's fine. Walked away for the night. Came out next day to mess with the TB. Somehow my pump kept running overnight. Filled up my intake, passed through my TB into my air cleaner, got into my crank case, filled up my cylinders, went out my exhaust, I kid you not, there must have been 3-4 gallons of gas lurking in my engine. Drained pan, new oil, etc, etc, basically made sure that there was no remaining gas. Got new intake gaskets and FI grommets. Now, the stupid thing will not start. I was very careful in indexing the dizzy when I removed it (side note: I didn't count the teeth on the diz gear, but it looks to be about 10-15. For example 1 gear off is what 30-20* rotation out of 360, seems that would be too obvious if it was that far off). Spun crank to TDC within 5deg , pulled diz cap, right on #1, spark at coil, spark at plugs. Pulled the plugs, a little wet from gas, but really good shape. Fuses are all good. Here's the really crazy thing, when I try to start it and press on the gas a little I can hear the AFM door opening and closing fast, pulsing so to speak. Almost as if it's in sync with the pistons pulling air in through the TB butterfly. No gas, don't hear the door "slapping" as if air is not even being pulled in. ISCV is good, ohms in spec and the valve actuates in sequence. TPS is good per literature. The AFM fuel circuit is good. Here's the weird part.....somehow pressure is building up in the intake and starts to blow vacuum hoses off (the two on the front of the upper intake) and I can see the air cleaner "jump" up due to all the air blowing back through it (when my foot is on the gas). I thought that maybe the door was opening from the initial vacuum, and then closing when maybe pulling a vacuum from another source like a leak and pressure built up from that leak and blew back through air cleaner tube? Well, I tighened up all intake and related bolts in a X pattern, some were a bit loose, but I'm 99% sure there is no leak from that area, 3x checked it. The FI wires are correct, the vac lines are correct. Then I thought maybe there was a plug of gas in my exhast building up pressure, so I disconnected it from the header, some gas leaked out, but it's all downhill from the head now. There's all kinds of crap in the header like dissolved carbon mixed with gas. Now I'm thinking worst case senario, I messed up my valves and or seats and they aren't closing all the way on the intake side, maybe even the exhasut side and the compression is pressing air back through the intake. The best I got it to do is backfire, and that was about 3-5 secs after turning it off. Other than that I'm SOL. Is that dizzy position correct? Anybody out there know what this might be or have had this happen to them?

Dyl

[dreys77]

BTW, it's an 84 5MGE.

[BillyM]

Pressure in the intake is no good. Figure out where it's coming from.

If'n I had to guess, you got the plug wires buggered.

--billyM

[dreys77]

I'll recheck the wires, that stuff was all apart, I cleaned the plug valley in the process. The pressure in the intake is what concerns me most, almost like it's pointing to a larger problem I now have. The only thing that I can think would generate enough pressure to make the afm box "jump" are the pistons. I know a guy with a compression gauge, I got the #'s, I'll check that out later today, hopefully that will tell me more......

[dreys77]

Plug wires are correct, the compression seems to be good, above 135 on all. It was 180 in #2, that seemed a little high, but none so low to be representative of the amout of air going back through my intake to cause my air cleaner to jump. Any ideas?

[Tanya]

180 is actually normal, 135 is a bit low

Sounds like an intake backfire as you're describing, which could be that you're way out of time, stuck valve or possible BHG (which doesn't seem to be that as the cylinder pressures are relatively average)

I would definitely recheck the dizzy timing, along with the cam/crank timing and make sure everything is in order.

[dreys77]

So basically, to rule out my timing: Make sure the crank is at 0*, the cams are at their respective marks, and the diz rotor should be pointing exactly at #1, correct? If that is correct, then next would be a stuck valve, which seems like a possiblity considering what happened. Is there any way to check for that difinitively? BTW, I used the TSRM psi # for reference, (min of 128/max of 164 with 14 varience.....Thanks....

[socalsupra]

might be a stuck intake valve. if its stuck open then its pushing and pulling air in and out of the tb

[Junkie]

A ventured guess .... semi educated......

Since compression is a bit on the low side,triple check the cam timing.Guess is they are 180* out,lined up on the wrong marks.I don't have the online tsrm saved on this computer,but look at that,and check intake cam position,per the tsrm,while you are looking at the marks "lobe thru oil fill hole".

[dreys77]

Thanks for the input so far. Just to verify the cam timing: on the cam gears, I basically have 3 marks. On one side of the gear (on the face) there is a "T" mark, directly across from it there is an "E" with a raised bump under it. That is the mark I used originally (the "E" with a bump under it). If I had a stuck valve I should be able to see that if I take the intake v.cover off and rotate the cam. The stuck valve will be the one that will temporarily not be making contact with the cam as I'm spinning it? If this is the issue, is there any way to remedy this without pulling my head?

[Donn29]

If the cam timing is right, take the cam cover off to see if everything is moving properly.

Check the TSRM EM15 is about where you should look.

[socalsupra]

not realy to replace the valve yoou have to remove the head. but if a broken spring you might be able to replace it while its still in. the T is top dead center. the E is exhaust TDC. you can also pop off the oil filler cap and look in there and you will see a 3/8 in hole as you rotate the cam you will see a hole that is drilled in the cam line up with that hole. thats how you find perfect TDC or exhaust TDC without using a TDC gage

[dreys77]

That's interesting about the timing marks. I located both the cam gears with the "E" on each one since the little casting bump is basically all they show in the TSRM and is right below the "E". Anyways I located them to the notches in the back housing of the timing cover. I feel that the timing is okay, I've had is running before how it is. I'm just still leaning towards all that gas getting in my engine screwed something up. I never tried to start it with the gas in, luckily I noticed it before I cranked it. I mean, I can't begin to imagine what happens to an engine that had gas filling up the cylinders to the valves, past the valves, all the way up the intake, past the TB and back down the intake pipe to my filter...dripping out, and dripping out my exhaust. That bad, it was like that for about 12-14 hours, basically a gas bath inside the engine. This is so screwed up........:suicide:

[socalsupra]

ok drain the all the fluids out and replace. take out the spark plugs and see if there is any gas in the cylinders if there is vacuum it out as best you can. try starting it again. if it starts change oil again. check that your fuel pump is turning off when your ignition is off. check the check valve, there is a one way valve in your fuel pressure reg. that prevents back siphening that may be your best bet

[SkoonMA67]

what boggles my mind is how the hell were the injectors firing? Unless they are leaking really bad, makes me wonder if there is even more wrong.

Maybe I missed a part...

[Chrisfrom1986]

Setting timing:

Crank pulley notch at 0* mark.
Cam gears installed with pins in center holes.
Cams holes aligned like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/xok/DSC03058.jpg

Not this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/xok/DSC03057.jpg

Distributor not installed (IE in your hand), rotor pointing at #5, when installed will rotate to #1.

I wouldnt pay too much attention at the letters on the cam gears to set the timing... this has always confused me how people set the timing this way.

[dreys77]

I'll try that with the timing. But still, it ran before the gas entered the engine with the timing how it was. For some reason, when I was troubleshooting it previously, I had removed the large ECU PIN (AFM, COR, etc) and inadvertantly left the key in the ON position. Apparently this little combo turns your pump on and fires your injectors. When I duplicated the problem to find out why gas was in my engine, I could hear the pump running and the injectors firing. But it was weird. It was like high pressure spray sound from the fuel rail and injectors, then nothing for a 2 count, then spray, then nothing, etc, etc. I'm gonna check the timing again, 5th time, and rule that out. Then I'm gonna set it on fire and push it off a cliff.....