SAFC Help on 5MGTE

[mkiimaniac]

Ok, I am piggybacking on my thread here: http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=32081

but I hope to get more help & seems better suited at this point in this forum...

If you didnt read the above thread then basically I have an 82 5MGTE w/

1982 SUPRA
295 injectors
stock pump (for now)
stock ct-26
3 in exhaust,
wideband & safc2

I have swapped in an 85 TB & TPS on my 82 Supra so I can hopefully properly use the safc2...
The 82 TPS wont work due to not showing the throttle position as it fluctuates...

SAFC shows throttle sensor at .750volts (approx) closed (no pedal) & 5.115volts when you stomp gas (wot)--which i believe is correct.

Here's what happens, The car starts & idles fine for a minute or 2 at 11 or 12 afr, then slowly gets richer & richer down to about 9.7-10.0afr as the rpms slowly go up & down slightly until it dies...it usually starts up after a few minutes or after we give it a vacuum leak help...

If you even touch the throttle a little while it is idling it dies immediately.

The problem is at sensor type arrow up to Northeast, & set to "Karman", at low or high throttle the AFR does NOT respond to anything I do with the SAFC...

I even changed the sensor to FLAP & so on---NOTHING happens to the AFR while making adjustments thru the unit. The car just runs the same.

I double checked all wires & connections...grey wire (throttle from safc connected to the VTA pin on 85tps, AFM (VS) connected to the SAFC, etc etc...WTF?

Anyone else have this problem?
Suggestions?

[Dangerous Ken]

Here's what happens, The car starts & idles fine for a minute or 2 at 11 or 12 afr, then slowly gets richer & richer down to about 9.7-10.0afr as the rpms slowly go up & down slightly until it dies...it usually starts up after a few minutes or after we give it a vacuum leak help...

If you even touch the throttle a little while it is idling it dies immediately.


Flooding it.
Install 210s.

Ken

[WadeT]

Keep the AFM setting off Karman. It's for 7mgtes. Use flap only.
Are you sure the afm part is wired up correctly? So, you've cut VS and spliced the ECU side to the yellow AFC wire and the other end of VS to the white wire on the AFC right? Just checking here.

If you want to know IF the AFC/AFM portion is working correctly, goto the low throttle map and select the 1000rpm point(or whatever it is on the AFCII). Start removing fuel (-), at some point the engine should start to stall. If that happens, the it's wired correctly. On the VTA part, IIRC, mine doesn't work either.

[walkerhiboost]

I have the 295s on my modded 6M. It ran without the SAFC II, runs lots better with it.

Sounds like something is up with the way its wired... Recheck and make sure you cut the yellow with blue strip wire....

[mkiimaniac]

Ok, I used Karman per advice of 7mgte guys next door who use that setting--they said since it uses AFM it needs to be on Karman....But anyway, I will switch it.

I was on low throttle map at 1000rpms & pulled out all the way to -50 but the AFR did nothing....I will check it again tonight though.

The SAFC is reading the RPMS correctly but I will check again tonight....

About that TPS setting with arrow up, ** or arrow down....I was told that is for tps's that either go from 0-5 volts (5v when WOT) & for TPS' that go from 5v-0v (0v when WOT)

Whcih should I be on?

[walkerhiboost]

You should be on the 0 to 5 V setting..
The 7MGTE guys have a Karman Vortex AFM..... we have a FLAP.

[mkiimaniac]

Ok, so is that what the up arrow (on the safc) is for the 0-5v tps's & the down arrow is 5-0v tps's

Also will change to flap type later & double & triple check my wiring...

[walkerhiboost]

I just hooked mine up a couple of weeks ago.... let me know if you need any more help. I still have to setup the Knock part.

[mkiimaniac]

Ok, good news...the car IDLES!

After I changed the Car select back to FLAP & the arrow to up, we realized that I still had the pink & orange wires going to the AFM signal & should have been using yellow & white when its on Hot Wire or Flap...the orange & pink were for Karman only.

So the AFR responds to the SAFC, sort of..

As I add fuel (low throttle-1000rpm) the car actually leans out

When I take away fuel the car gets richer.

So after a little while we got the car to idle smooth at an "OK" 12.4 afr
Still needs more tweaking but I don't understand why its backwards.

We also changed the arrow to down but seemed to run worse...the car likes the arrow up

[WadeT]

See?:) It still sounds like your VS is spliced incorrectly. I think you have the white and yellow wires crossed up. Try reversing them.

[walkerhiboost]

See?:) It still sounds like your VS is spliced incorrectly. I think you have the white and yellow wires crossed up. Try reversing them.

I concur Dr.

[mkiimaniac]

Yea, I'm gonna reverse them but I have them connected like the book says. I've got the AFM spring pretty darn tight too. I marked where it was but I have a bad feeling I may have went 1 full turn & honestly not sure where stock is *slaps forehead*...

Anyway, at 1000 rpms we still have it +50% & after adjusting the afm a little more, it idles at about 14.2-14.9 which is great

When I slowly give it gas, even before it can get into the next adjustment range on the safc which is 1600rpms, it goes WAAAAYY lean like, 22-30 afr lean & would die if I didnt back out of it.

But Im gonne be persistant, I have to remember, at least the car runs...Im using an 85 head, put on a new headgasket, ARP's, bigger injectors, etc...I/Weve come a long way so far...I'm impressed that everything still works & runs great after tinkering with so much & for so long.

[mkiimaniac]

I reversed the wires, car wouldnt even start. Put them back, car started.

The car definately responds to the safc, just backwards...wtf?

Anyway, even besides the point, where do i go from here?
I put the AFM back to stock & car wouldnt even start.
I Lean the AFM out & the car starts & idles (about 750-900 rpms)

However, as I creep on the gas & get into the 12-1300 range, it goes way lean & will die. Where do i go from here? I can't see why this is happening...maybe i'll the 82 TB & TPS back on & use "**" for car select instead of arrow up

Any ideas?

If I can't get this to work I may justgoback to stock injectors & a 2025 or 2035 rrfpr....at least that will work.

[bozosoku]

Post your SAFC settings in every details and see if anyone can chip in.

[mkiimaniac]

Well, I started removing the 295 injectors. I have a set of 210 injectors I should have in by tonight...hopefully the car will run much better, but we will see...as for the SAFC settings,

Car Select= arrow up
Sensor Type= Flap
Low throttle=+ 50% (remember, for now the safc is working backwards, thats why its 50%+ not 50%-
Car idles fine around 12.5 afr we can tweak afm to get closer to 14.5 though.

These are the only settings I have in the rpm range since the car leans out to the point of stalling after 13-1400 rpms

thanks for your continued help

[bozosoku]

Is there a sensor in/out number that you have to select after picking flap type ?

[mkiimaniac]

nope,

I actually just got in, the 295s are out & 210's are in...reset timing, checked everything...

Car spits & sputters & runs but doesn't sound like on all cylinders. I swear it sounds like the distributor is off & the cars timing isn't right but I checked it/reset it like 4 times & the rotor is DEAD center on #1 cylinder when that cap goes on. If I have no success the stock injectors are going back in & I will run a RRFPR & Walbro pump with high fule pressure.

Anybody wanna buy a car? :)

[bozosoku]

The rotor should be at about 8 o'clock position with #1 cylinder in TDC. Somehow I think your SAFC entry is not set correctly and not hardware related.

[walkerhiboost]

I have my notes with me if you want to go over it wire by wire.... like I said, I have the 295s on a N/A modded 6M and it runs great...

[mkiimaniac]

Would love to...PM sent...maybe you could also include it here in the thread for others to see/compare....

although our ecus & harnesses are quite different it still should be helpful.

Also includ eyour exact settings.

[walkerhiboost]

SAFC II > Car's Computer Harness
Red(+) > BK/Y
Green > G/W
Purple > Clear
Grey > Black
Brown > Ground closest to ecu
Black > Ground 1cm apart
Yellow > To CPU Yellow/Blue Stripe
White > To AFM Yellow/Blue Stripe
Cut Yellow/Blue Stripe
Settings
Flap
03, 03
6 cyl
I have an 85, so I put the arrow pointing to the up left due to the 0 - 5 V for the throttle position.

I started off with all at -4 then leaned it out to about -8 up until about 5k. I will get the exact numbers when I get home and can look at it....

My mods: 6M, metal HG, arps, ported head, cams, Rabid intake with Blitz filter, 295s, JDM V7 STi fuel pump(I have a Mark III turbo and Walbro to put into it.), Thorley header and exhaust.

[Dangerous Ken]

See?:) It still sounds like your VS is spliced incorrectly. I think you have the white and yellow wires crossed up. Try reversing them.

The 82 AFM is the one year the voltages are Reversed...
AFM part number nnnnnnnn10 over nnnnnnnnn20

Ken

[mkiimaniac]

hmmmm. interesting, although I did switch the white & yellow wires on the SAFC & car wouldn't start at all....I guess I have to adjust it (SAFC) backwards then? or what DOES that mean exactly :)

Anywho, I took out the 210's & put back the 182 stock injectors, car still does not run correctly...missing & sputtering, etc....I beleive I may have pissed off my AFM to the point of no return....gonna swap back in an untampered with 82 as soon as it arrives later this week & see what happens...other than that I dont know what the hell is wrong now...The only variable left is the AFM

I must say I'm becoming quite familiar with the left side of the motor :zzzzz:

[Dangerous Ken]

In 1983 and up (TCCS) the AFM VS voltage DECREASES with increased throttle opening..

The 1982 AFM is pre TCCS and is backwards.

What I'm getting at is the SAFC may only work on 1983+ TCCS cars.

Ken

[Lee_MA61]

^^^ That's what I was going to suggest. Just that one varation in pre TCCS cars can be what is causing all this fuss.

Do you have access to and older SAFC? If not your other plans should work for you.

Good Luck!

[mkiimaniac]

[QUOTE=Lee_MA61;367229
Do you have access to and older SAFC? If not your other plans should work for you. Good Luck![/QUOTE]

I guess I could but what difference would the older SAFC make? I thought that aside from a few addtl adjustments you can do with the SAFC2, they are the same as far as wiring, inputs, etc...but please do tell if i'm mistaken or this may help me...

As far as turboing the 82, If I had known half this crap I wouldnt have even tried, but who knows, maybe with all of your help I can pave the way for other future 5mgte'ers who want to use this setup.....

Although I can't say the thought hasnt crossed my mind to abort this mission & just do it on my 85 & be done with it....Although Cherry isn't nearly as pretty or clean as Whitey.

[Dangerous Ken]

Don't give up on the 82.
It's probably the best year to add a turbo to the stock ECU - because it can run without the electronic bandaids - the only year utilizing the vac advance distro.

It will take more 'mechanical' tweaking rather than fooling the ECU with black boxes.
The heart of this is adding the right amount of fuel and your mechanical tweaks are the injectors and the rrfpr.

Take out the SAFC and get it to idle on the 210s - play with base fuel pressure as a start.

I've got a 1982 5mgte on the backburner too.
The 82 is a 'classic' car now in Colorado, so emissions wise, it's the perfect candidate.
Instead of the rrfpr, I chose the AIC (additional injector controller) to add fuel only when in boost, preserving the great drivability since most of the time it's on stock injectors / ECU.
When going turbo, the first decision you come across is stock ECU or standalone. If keeping stock, the easiest to turbo is the 82 5m and next would be swapping in a later year 7mgte.
Learn the mechanical tuning on the 82 5mgte first, then go standalone and swap in any motor that meets your horsepower goals.

Ken

[mkiimaniac]

I decided against the RRFPR, but to add the bigger injectors (295's) & pump later after got the car tuned.

Do you have the AIC installed already? If so, PICS!! I only know of one other who did it here & saw some pics...I decided against it due to more custom work than I wanted to deal with at the time. Realizing there are 2 or3good setups to turbo the 5m, looking back I would have probably done 210's, rrfpr fully adjustable & walbro pump....Instead of 295's, SAFC & walbro or stock pump & stock fpr... mainly due to the differences in electronics that I really didnt know about until i was already in it...such as with the TPS & SAFC

Now I have th 85 tb & tps wired separately to the safc & stock ecu & finally got the safc to work, only backwards, but thats ok, i can deal with that...

My problem now is that after removing the 295s & putting in the 210's, the car simply doesnt run right, likeits not on all cylinders....it gurgles & burps, so we put the afm back to stock & then swapped the 182s back in, still same problem

My "stock" 82 afm should come soon since I have a bad feeling about the afm I have tampered with on the car now but we will see what happens....

Once the car runs correctly with 210's, I will see how well I can get her tuned with the safc, & proceed from there.

[mkiimaniac]

Just an update, the car is purring again with the stock injectors. All I can say is setting that damn timing on the distributor can be a bitch.

She will get her first bath after a year tomorrow & a little test drive.
If all goes well she will get the 210's back in & will try & make some adjustments with the SAFC2

[Lee_MA61]

Good to hear you got it timed right! Now let's see some pictures of this car and your setup!

Keep on it you'll figure out the rest here pretty quick.

[mkiimaniac]

Ask & you shall receive.

I got to the pictures of the car at least... The setup not so glamorous, at this point anyway...so some pics of that later.

I drove her for the first time in a year today! What a good feeling to have a wideband with me to see what's going on. It was just around the block, we still have many little things to do & tweak & I know she is stock fuel so I was very safe, but of course I boosted her once or twice just a little...i just couldnt resist.

By the end of the day she was back apart again, the 210's are now in & we have to fix an oil leak.

Pics of Whitey: http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=32406

[Lee_MA61]

I'm assuming you are running a CT-26, correct? What are your plans for boost? Stock 8lbs or higher? Since you have the lower 8.8:1 compression pistons, you should be able to run higher than 84+ engines. Do you have a thicker head gasket to help drop that compression ratio?

Sorry for all the questions if you have answered them already somewhere.

Thanks again for posting those pictures.

[mkiimaniac]

Yea, stock ct-26 running only 7lbs for now but hopefully plan to go maybe 9 or 10 tops...this isnt going to be a drag car, just something to have a little fun with.

Headgasket has been replaced with Titan Motorsports 1.2mm metal HG.

[mkiimaniac]

Just an update guys,

I have the 210cc injectors installed & the car is running good except for a few small vacuum leaks I will fix tonight.

After changing the injectors only (still stock pump I decided it a good idea to drive the car again)

At 7lbs of boost the car feels pretty good & the injectors have helped alot. At 4-5k rpms (WOT) the AFR went to an average of 12.4-12.5 max---astill not where I want it but it was good confirmation that the car is indeed getting some much needed extra fuel.

Before with stock injectors the car was hitting 14-16 AFR under boost just as a comparison, although I only boosted a couple times

The next mission is to install the Wlabro pump & retest the car again. I will also try to fine tune with the SAFC2, but am learning to change 1 thing, test, repeat :)

It's a really good feeling having the ole wideband in the cockpit & amazing how dumb i was not have it from the get-go....

[yumidraco]

what was your rrfpr set to when u had your 210cc inj running 7 psi boost

[n.o. drifter]

to show you my stupidity, i have on ther right now, 7mgte injectors(i think 430cc), rrfpr, walbro pump, and a apexi safc neo. i run 10 afr all the time and can't rev past 2l becasue of rich conditions.

i am going to have to switch back to stock injectors b/c these 430s spray so much fuel.

[mkiimaniac]

what was your rrfpr set to when u had your 210cc inj running 7 psi boost

I was not using a rrfpr, just the stock one.

& I'm surprised you could even get the car to run with those injectors. (7mgte, pump & rrfpr)

[n.o. drifter]

it runs bit can't idle or rev past 2k so i unplug the neo plug to make it run lean and plug it back in si could rev it high

[n.o. drifter]

i hate to thread jack here but i got a question... i swapped back in my 5m injectors and now my car runs lean, 19 afr. i don't know what to do, i am goign to try and return everyting to stock, pull the afc wiring and try and see if it might be a voltage problem(afc taking away too much voltage from lines goign to the ecu) any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. and the afc when i tune it, it does nothing to help.

[mkiimaniac]

You probably have a vacuum leak like I did after tearing doen the fuel rail & TB time after time after time. Check ALL of your vacuum lines carefully. Also, your TB gasket is probably damaged or has pieces mising which all add up to vacuum leakage & lean conditions at idle.

Get yourself some starting fluid or carb cleaner, whatever, & spray it near & around your intake areas. When the idle jumps up & smooths out you have found your leak--then fix it. Also, a stethoscope helped me out alot, as it allowed me to really listen for leaks with the motor running.

Watch the AFR as you or your friend sprays.

[n.o. drifter]

^ car won't idle with out throttle, and if u rev it it doesn't start to get less until 3k, it stays 19 until then then it starts to drop, slowly.

also i returned the electronics to stock, and still no success. i sprayed carb cleaner over the throttle body while startign it with the key o nand pinchign the starter relay. no leaks from what i can tell, but i will try again by pulling ic piping off TB and spraying starter fluid directly into it and seeing if anything happens.

[mkiimaniac]

keep looking...still sounds like a vacuum leak