Springs/coil overs

[Supra Bob]

A while ago, TomD on the Yahoo list said that there was a honda kit that we could use for coil overs for our fronts...

Do anyone have info on what application we would use?


Also, which will allow for a better launch for a car that should (mathematically anyway) be a high 12 second car... ST's or Eibachs?

[RaptorRacing]

Just to add to that, I believe Tom said that they were on ebay, if someone know what he's refering to can you provide us with a link to a potential auction so we can see for ourselves.

Thanks,

George

[Supra Bob]

I've looked on ebay, and there are coil over kits for just about every damn Honduh known to man... The good part is they are in the 50 to 70 dollar range for all four coorners...

[SupraFiend]

Try club4age. The front suspension on AE86s are pretty much identical to ours, in fact I think our strut inserts are interchangable. I have an AE friend with front coilovers, they were for a civic.

[Supra Bob]

Well, I asked TomD on the yahoo list, and according to him, any coilover kit with a 2-in tube will work...just make sure you have to weld the perches on and its not the set-screw type. William B, who is one step ahead of me I guess and doing what I am thinking about, said that he got a kit for a 92+ vtec prelude (which weighs in amazingly close to our cars). He didn't know the spring rates, but the rear springs were 10 inches and the fronts were 8.

<---heading to ebay to make some purchases

BTW...William... you said your using ST springs... so you are using St springs AND a coil over setup on the rear? and what about the fronts?

[williamb82]

im using the coilovers up front and the st's out back. neither are installed at the moment. the way i see it. all we need is the threaded collars. i got the dropzone coilovers(surprizingly similar to ground controls btw. im almost 100%positive the threaded collars are the same. not sure about the springs). ran me $80 shipped. we can get race springs any rate and length for about $100 a pair. so if the prelude springs arent stiff enough ill buy a new set of springs. i will prolly sell the other set of threaded collars to eric. i dont know if he can use the 10in springs or not. also, i will be shortening my front strut housings as i have a pair of tociko illuminas for the rear of an aw11(88-89 mr2 supercharged). they are about 2in shorter then our stock shocks. on the rear im looking into some other vehicles shocks that might fit and when i find an interchange that is a lil stiffer and relatively same shock length ill get some illuminas for the rear as well. as for finding an auction just look for prelude coilovers. youll prolly turn back at least 15pages. hth.
william

[Supra Bob]

Damn dude... you just exactly described the setup I have been thinking about... minus the PST bushings and an LJM bar...

:) Guess my line of thinking is pretty good thus far then

[williamb82]

i have a first run ljm strut bar on the car now and will be making the rear bar when i get off my lazy azz. lol. also, i have a pst catalog and plan on the front and rear kit, but right now its time to fix my car and then start on the motor thats getting race prepped rods, forged pistons, o-ringed block, p&p head, etc..... oh, btw, i will be buying the front camber kit eventually too.
william

[RaptorRacing]

Not to be ignorant guys, but I have a few questions:

1. Obviously the rear coil-overs are useless in these honda kits on ebay right
2. What is the inside diameter of the springs on your kit William, Ground Control offers eibach springs in 2.25 and 2.5" i.d.
3. This might be a dumb one: 'what the hell is the perch, where do you weld it to...is this something that any mechanic can do
4. Is this kit something similar to what you guys are thinking of:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2411105069&category=6763

5. Can any shocks be used with these kits.

Sorry for all the questions guys but I'm really suspension ignorant. As you can tell from my pervious posts I'm dying suspension but am at a loss as to what to do.. TIA.

George
84 6m
89 T

[williamb82]

well, that is baasically the kit you would need but i wouldnt get that one as it has 2 threaded collars per theaded sleeve. you have to tighten them together to set it. the ones i got have one threaded collar to sdjust and it has an allen head bolt you tighten to set it. here is a link to the ones i got.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2410230750&category=6767

also, you can order springs in any spring rate and length. i beleive mine are 2.5in inner diameter, as for the rear set, eric will prolly pic them up and then buy the springs he wants. the springs are about $100 a pair and then one box of coilovers is $80 shipped. thats $280 for 2 sets of front coilovers for our cars.$140/set as apposed to ground controls $200/set. and thats if the front springs dont work. i think they will. the springs for hondas are usually pretty stiff as they would drop the car the full 4in. so it should work.

on my car i will have the threaded sleaves welded after i shorten the strut tube 2in. i have the shorter shocks from the rear of an mr2.

the pirch is the part the spring sits on. hth.
william

[RaptorRacing]

O.K, so if i follow you, you pickedthese up and sold 2 to someone else to help recover your cost. Now, you believe that the springs that come with this set work right? If not, do we just get the replacements from ground control? I've checked their site and they offer dozons of springs in the 2.5" id size. What do you think is the right one to go for?

Is there anyone else willing to do this a go splits on the set?

I plan on getting the tokico adjustables from toysport, is there anything else i need to do for the fronts beyond welding the perch on?

Why did you opt for the Suspension Technique springs and not the Eibachs?

Sorry for all the questions guys, i just want to make sure i know what I'm getting into.

Thanks,

George

[williamb82]

cost is why i chose the st springs. i got a set used for $100. plus i only needed the rears. the eibachs are over $200 a set and im cheap. lol. also, the st's are a linear rate spring and the eibachs are progressive. i have a 7mgte in my 84 and plan on making 500+rwhp when i finish building up my other motor(i got the forged pistons in today btw) and need something stiff to try anf keep it from squating so hard. i will prolly get the spring cushions jim king is working on when he's finished so i can raise the car up some more in the rear. i think the front springs that come wit hthe kit should work but i wont know for sure till i try them. if they dont work i personally will prolly opt for a set of 8in springs at about a 450-500lb spring rate. hth
william

[RaptorRacing]

Thanks William...you've been a great help.

George

[ksourounis]

William, if you want to rear of the car raised, why dont you somehow mount a threaded sleave to the base of the rear control arm and use a 2.5" ID spring with a hard enough spring rate to be equivalent to our cars. that way you can raise the car a bit giving it positive camber in the rear, and when you launch the rear will squat and the camber will be 0. and you will have a perfect contact patch.

I want to try this, but am worried about the amount of suspension travel, as the bump stop will be hitting the top of the sleeve instead of the bottem of the control arm.

Anybody have any thoughts?

[williamb82]

well, i dont think 2.5in diameter springs would work very well. they would eassily fit inside our stock springs. i think the st's with the bushings that jim king is haveing made should do the trick.

i also plan to auto cross. this is not a drag car, this is my daily driver. you dont even want to know what i want to do when i build a drag car. lol.


anyway, i also forgot to mention i have a set of addco sway bars to install too. i think ive had them for around 2 years now and still havent installed them. looks like the whole suspension will get redone all at once so im gonna have to learn how to make it slide around corners without spinning out all over again. lol.


william

[Racetek82]

I don't know how many of you are on the SupraForums, but I posted over there about some new products I'm working on....one of which is a coilover setup....

"I will be offering two different suspension setups, one for street, and the other for the more race orientated.

The street setup will have the fronts similar to the GC design. The rear will take some inventiveness, but I do have a design in mind. I did some research, and found that the IS300 has a similar issue with the upper portion of the shock being surrounded by the shock tower, too close to allow a coilover spring up high. The way this is solved is by bolting on a sleeve on the upper portion, that positions the spring perch down low. This same sleeve will be the adjustable portion on my product. The lower mount will also have a bolt on spring perch. All products will be CNC machined from either aluminum, or steel. I havent decided yet.

These sleeves will work on just about all shocks, fitment on skinnier shocks will be handled with rubber o-rings of various thickness. I may also think about offering shocks with this setup, it depends on the initial reaction when i get the sleeves done.

The race setup will see the fronts including race style struts, possibly Koni, with custom lower mount and spindle if I can't work around the stock ones. The strut body will be fully threaded, so infinite height adjustment is possible. These struts are full ride adjustable. I may also offer pillow ball mounts to go with this kit.
The rear of this kit will be a very unique one, that will most likely require some modification to fit, but the results will be more than worth it. The stock location of the shock will be replaced by a solid bar, that has adjustable rod ends. It will run through the stock upper mount hole (which will probably need to be enlarged), and bolted to a cantilever arm. This arm will pivot and push against the coilover shock top. The shocks will be mounted in the car, behind the back seat area. They will sit in a Vee position, and mounted on a tubular frame, which will also act as a shock tower brace. The shocks will be fully adjustable, as will the spring seat. The beauty of this setup will be that fact you can lower your car without altering your shock travel. This is accomplished by adjusting the rod ends, or for more extreme height changes, changing out for a different length rod. So regardless of car height, your shock settings can remain the same.
I'm trying my best to use stock mounting holes, and to not require interior panel mods, but it's looking pretty tough. But I figure if you're serious enough to buy this kit, that shouldn't be a biggie.

For both kits, different spring rates and lengths will be available. As for time frame, this will depend on my ability to get funding for R&D, plus how much spare time I have to work on this, as I'm a full time student and work part time also. I'll do my best to finish up quick though. The more feedback I get..the quicker I work =)"



http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114867

[Supra Bob]

I have also been thinking about the rear coil over set-up.. and while the approach I am thinking about is really "low-tech" compared to Ray's set-up, I think It may end up about the same result.


I was thinking about cutting out the upper shock tube from the chasis and welding in the upper half of the Coil-over plate into the hole, thereby using it as both a spring and shock mount, and if need be, a re-fabbed tube could be replaced in there even... unless there would be some problem created by cutting the tube out.

Alot more custom work involved, but alot cheaper (for me at least... I have a friend who makes a living bending steel I-beems and the like with nothing but torches... the guy is Picasso with a Plasma cutter..lol)

[Racetek82]

Bob....the upper shock tube you refer to in the rear is actually part of the shock itself. When you unbolt the shock..it all comes out as one piece. I would not do any kind of welding on the shock..as it will explode! :shock:

[Supra Bob]

I haven't actually looked at it yet, but my understanding of it was that the Tunnel/tube/whatever you want to call it was too narrow to support a coil-over set-up... Widening that opening is what I am talking about.... I'll have to put it up on the lift on wednesday and actually look at it.... I could be misunderstanding the problem..

[Racefiend]

If you incorporate a spherical bearing mount for the top of the shock into your custom upper mount setup, it would increase the ease of finding custom shocks for your setup. Just a thought.

Christian


I was thinking about cutting out the upper shock tube from the chasis and welding in the upper half of the Coil-over plate into the hole, thereby using it as both a spring and shock mount, and if need be, a re-fabbed tube could be replaced in there even... unless there would be some problem created by cutting the tube out.

[Racetek82]

Bob: The "tube" you are talking about is a major part of the body. In certain parts it's doubled up in steel. In the lower portion...it is the main steel frame of the body. Modifying this would take major cutting, welding, and reinforcing of the body and frame. Not a viable option unless you are going full race, or run a integrated tube frame of some sorts.

Christian: putting a spherical bearing won't make a difference, as the shock has very limited movement side to side....the stock bushing design is fine. The hole is large enough to fit shock pins of all sizes. It's the actual car's body that is in the way.

[Racefiend]

Hey Ray, if you ever get a prototype of this stuff put on your car, I'd like to come check it out. LMK when you do.

Christian

[82Spearco]

Ray, there are probably a number of people that would be interested in something like this. As usual, it comes down to $$$ and timing with most people. On the Street setup you were describing, would this get rid of the excessive negative camber many of us with Eibachs and ST's experience? I really don't understanding the suspension very well, but would my existing Bilstein's still work? or would I need to go with a different/shorter shock/strut?

[Racetek82]

The camber problem will be addressed after the street setup is released. It requires modification to the rear crossmember. More info will come as I complete my R&D. I will be trying to make this kit universal to most shocks, but since they vary in diameter, it might be tough to cover them all. I will most likely cover the shocks that are more readily available, like tokico, kyb, and koni. Your bilsteins should work..but it all depends on the diameter.

Christian: I will definitely let you know when I get some prototypes done. If you're interested,. I might need some people to test the prototypes for me.

[82Spearco]

I wanted to bump this topic back up.

Has anyone actually installed the Prelude front coil-overs?

Ray, is your front coil-over setup ready?

I am looking for something to drop my fronts another inch or so, I already have Eibachs, front and rear, and the front sits too high.

[RaptorRacing]

Chad...I've been trying to track down Ray for a while now. I really curious to see how his set-up is. Hopefully he responds soon.

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=43b762b7-62a8-6592-7b77-4073596a6a7c&size=lg

[82Spearco]

You can't beat the price of the Prelude coil-over option, but I want to hear/see that someone has done it, and what issues they may have run into. If Ray can offer a setup that is competitive, that is another option. Like you, I don't know alot about suspension components, I just know that I want the front to sit a little lower and maintain the sporty (if somewhat harsh) ride.

[TRD 83 SUPRA XX]

Hey guys whats up?

Anyways I wanna know your opinin on on both E springs and ST springs?
I know ST's go lower but since I'm a Drifter I dont know if thayll work for that. Are E's ment more for sport or for show or vise versa??? Also the last time I went to Drift day or DD7 in Fontana California Sponserd by Club 4AG. I saw an MK2 with Fully Ajustable front coilover setup :shock: No shit on the real!!!!!! To me thats some thing new he gave me his card told me if I or any one I know that has an MK2 Supra or any Supra ever needed some thing just to call him or E-mail him Ill post the # and E-mail so if you guys ever need something just hit him up. At the moment Im tied up for cash But if you guys arnt do the good thing and get more sweet stuff for your supras!!!!! Oh tell him Alex sent you Tell him it was the guy with the red MK2 at DD7 "Drift Day7" 8)


Michael Urband
"Performance Consultant"

E-mail genkigarage@aol.com

BUS: 562-924-0228

CELL: 562-673-5650

[TRD 83 SUPRA XX]

Before I forget Remember to post here If you calld him?????

[Racetek82]

why does that sound so much like MIKE URBANO??? lolz....anyways....

The rear coilover kit won't be done for a while...mainly because i'm having trouble keeping the cost down for poor MK2 owners....If you guys don't mind a little cutting, and also losing some trunk space, I can have the cantilever setup available sooner.

The front coilover kit might be available as soon as next week. It will not come with strut inserts yet, I still have to try and work out a deal with Koni. In the kit you will get sleeves/collars, spring top, and dual springs. I will most likely be including a weld on perch for the sleeve to sit on, this will allow more adjustment range and is safer than resting the sleeve on the old welds. I figure this won't be a problem for most people, since a strut change is recommended when lowering your car more than 2", and welding can be done by a local muffler shop. Expect pricing to be cheaper than Ground Control. More info next week.

[RaptorRacing]

I'm I the only who thinking that 'next week' has come and gone a long time ago. :whutthef:

[TRD 83 SUPRA XX]

Yah wtf man lol J/K

No but on the real it has been more then what 3 months now.... So whats up with the stuff????

[kale]

updates on the rear setup ray? i'm ready for some cutting and loss of trunk space :D ... and to lose a chunk of change out of my wallet. let us know!

[RaptorRacing]

I don't know about you guys, but i love my trunk space. Unless it was night and day (performance wise) I personally would never want to loose my trunk space. If it's an all out race car that's different...but not for the street.

[kale]

the car this is for just happens to be an all out race car. :wink: can't wait to see some pics/specs