Fresh 6M; 1st Spark Plug Reading

[Tanya]

Engine has roughly 3,500 miles on it, decided to do some minor maintenance today (oil change, spark plug change, compression test). I am not a fan of the NGK V-Power spark plugs (I believe in deciding your own damn gap) so I am changing them out for NGK standards.

Here are the results of the first 3,500 miles + numerous highway floggings and two dyno runs (note: I gave the car a decently hard run before I shut it off to change the plugs)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/celicasupragirl/IMG_3145.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/celicasupragirl/IMG_3146.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/celicasupragirl/IMG_3148.jpg

Looks like she's running a tad lean I think, but I like how every cylinder seems to be doing the same thing, no bad surprises. Maybe time for those 235cc injectors soon...

Oh, have also thought about going a step colder spark plug due to the slightly higher compression (9.7:1) and possible advanced timing for the future, but decided against it for now.

[83CelWA]

I gap the v-powers and they work. But the ones pictured are not the v-powers from NGK. They look like the MGK plats.

[Dave A.]

Just a tad bit lean, but not bad overall. Are those the "stock" NGK Platinum plugs?

[Tanya]

Whoops, that's right, those are the NGK plats, I'm retarded.

Anyway, I tried gapping one a while back and broke the electrode. To hell with that.

At any rate, I also found another problem that's been temp fixed. There was a weld in the EGR port on the back of the head that started popping out, so I was having a big exhaust leak from #6. Just tapped it back in and took the car for a drive...

needless to say, the 6M ECU did not speed cut at 115mph, it was good until at least 120...

Car feels SO much better now with the standard plugs gapped to .035" and that damn EGR weld popped back in. I have to get the block off plate bolted on so I don't have to worry about it anymore. Hope my gas mileage goes back up..

[jtwhitehead]

plugs looked just like mine. after which i changed to colder plug. just the touch of lean look to them. i did on the other hand went to a step colder plug, ngk v whatevers. runs a little better. but after i put the 210cc in there i will be going back to the regular plug. figure with the more fuel it would help to burn better with the warmer stock plugs. you said you did a comp test? how did your numbers look? i will also set my afm back to stock with the injectors swap. how about this you do the 235 and ill do the 210, and well compare results. guess im gonna need to head to the dyno first and get a baseline run to see where i stand. hope to make comparable power. i do lack the header and chimp pipe but there is some goodness tucked inside that should help better than stock. ;-)

[Lexusboy]

hey, they look better than the ones in my old 5m when she blew... a couple were covered in anti freeze and sludge...

[Junkie]

Tanya, I'd agree with JT on going back to a std heat range once the larger injectors are installed. Not bad, now go get a real run at the dyno ;)

[Tanya]

Well the NGK standards I just put in are the norm, as I told ya, thought about going a step colder but decided against it. I have no experience messing with spark plugs to that degree.

Basically right now going to see if this effects my gas mileage any (as in a good way), run the car hard one day and take them out, check them out and do the compression test...

I know I have to get the car back on the dyno before the 235ccs go in... maybe next week :)

[Dave A.]

I know I have to get the car back on the dyno before the 235ccs go in... maybe next week :)


May I make a suggestion? Switch over to synthetic engine oil and put a few more miles on the engine before you do the dyno run. If your engine is in good tune, you should see at least a 2-3 RWHP increase as well as a slight increase in MPG. No joke!

[Tanya]

Not a big fan of synthetic oil, I have this fear that it'll leak even on my fresh engine (which reminds me to re-torque my cam tower bolts, as they're seeping a little)

I think the engine mileage is fine, engine is currently running smoother than it ever has after fixing the EGR port leak and gapping the plugs down.

[Donn29]

Not a big fan of synthetic oil, I have this fear that it'll leak even on my fresh engine

Now that's just silly... You'd be a fool not to use it. I'm sure you guys put this thing together properly!

[SupraWes]

Those are NGK G-Power platinums. I have them in both my 5M's right now, I think they are ok.

[Tanya]

Well, apparently I'm a fool, bc I am not going to use synthetic. /end.

..and to clarify, I put the engine together, Aaron did not. He helped me install it in the car.

[Dave A.]

Well, apparently I'm a fool, bc I am not going to use synthetic. /end.

..and to clarify, I put the engine together, Aaron did not. He helped me install it in the car.




No, you're not a fool, Tanya. You have the right to use whatever oil you want in your engine. Besides, I would feel awful if something didn't go just right and something happened to your engine. I should've just kept my stupid mouth shut! :rolleyes:

[Tanya]

lol, it's not your fault at all Dave, I appreciate all suggestions... just don't take kindly to being called a fool for not doing something.

[BillyM]

...sometimes synthetic just falls in your lap though (for $1 qt), and you don't have a choice.

Reading plugs for fuel isn't always accurate for a street-driven car, because you spend so much time at near-lean cruise conditions. Wideband is the only way to know what it's up to and when...

--billyM

[Junkie]

Wideband is the only way to know what it's up to and when...

--billyM

You, of all people, spouting this CRAP !!!!!

These cars, as you well know, tend to read rich on a wideband, and yet, can be running lean IN THE CYLINDER ..... I can tune one of these engines lean enough to burn a damn piston, and your wideband will tell you your running in the 11's for AFR.

Widebands are a tool, and only useful, if you use them with a good plug reading, after a good WOT run. Also useful at cruise, if you've read the plugs after a cruise condition. If you only use a piece of the puzzle, you only get part of the picture ...

[BillyM]

I should have specified... on a street driven car, reading plugs to verify lean or rich at differing loads is impossible. You don't know if that lean looking plug was while running wide open or cruising to and from the dyno. I read plugs every oil change, but I don't use them as an indication of tune because the coloration is given over the duration and is easily affected by sparkplug design, temperature, and other sources. I do, however, check for detonation and balance between cylinders, but I leave the fuel tuning to the wideband.

Again, don't mistake that as saying "don't check your plugs" but looking at a plug that has 3000 miles on it and saying "it must be lean" doesn't mean jack. Don't go out and knock some teeth out of your AFM to resolve. Check your color balance and the color-change point on the ground strap between the different cylinders, and ALWAYS keep an eye for that peppering on them all.

You can tune an engine (one funked injector) to lie to a wideband, just the same as I can put too-cold plugs in your car and it'll look like it's running super rich compared to the stockers. Use a combination of the two to assure you are where you need to be, but don't rely on one or the other.

In this particular case, I would worry about the difference between plugs 4 and 5 (left to right), and try swapping injectors for the next go-round (unless you can afford a flow test on them) to see if that coloration follows it. I would not assume anything about fuel needs at one load or another though because most of what we can see without peering INTO the plug is based solely off idle and light-load.

...for those who want to read up on reading sparkplugs, here are two decent links, but keep in mind these tuning suggestions are based off of drag racing, wide open, little idling, no cruising, and DEFINITELY NOT 3000 miles of mixed driving.

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/reading-spark-plugs.html

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html


--billyM

[Dave A.]

LOL!! I don't put too much faith in wideband readings, either. All it takes is a pinhole leak somewhere in the exhaust system before the O2 sensor (IE: ex. manifold gasket, piping, etc.) for the O2 sensor to throw off the reading.

The way I used to read plugs back in my days of muscle cars was to take the car out on the highway and go through the gears at full WOT along a long stretch and then shut off the ignition switch about midway through 4th gear, disengage the clutch and brake to a stop. I would then pull one or two of 8 plugs and read them while parked on the side of the road to see if I needed to jet the carb(s) up or down and then do another run (when no cops were around) after a jet swap in the garage.

Doing the same thing with a MKII is a little easier because you don't have to worry about the engine returning to idle when you let off the gas due to the deceleration fuel cut that's built into the ECU. The TPS has to be set correctly though or the decel fuel cut will be out of whack. You can coast after the long WOT run as long as you don't let the engine drop to 1200 RPM where the injectors are turned back on, but it's probably best just to shut the engine down about halfway through 5th gear at full WOT just to be safe.

An even better way to read the plugs is to do a WOT run on the dyno where the engine is placed under a full load.

Granted, this is the procedure that I used for racing only, but I would think that as long as the O2 sensor is functioning properly in closed loop during cruise that you should be able to obtain both a full WOT reading in open loop mode and a closed loop reading in cruise mode.

[Junkie]

Billy, I knew what you were saying, but, we must keep it clear for those less knowlegable, that read here ;) Thanks for the clarification.

During tuning, these days, I usualy have 3-4 sets of plugs to swap in, while making runs. What sucks, ..... I need to take pictures of the plugs these days, to get a good read on them ..... My eyes aren't as good as they once were :(

[Donn29]

LOL!! I don't put too much faith in wideband readings, either. All it takes is a pinhole leak somewhere in the exhaust system before the O2 sensor (IE: ex. manifold gasket, piping, etc.) for the O2 sensor to throw off the reading.


I would have to disagree. While this may be correct for an EGT(that I'm not 100% sure on), a WB however, looks at the air that passes by it, if there is a leak before it, the sample is only smaller. IE It would be like checking pH in a pool, one test using 1 gallon of water versus using 5 gallons. Also a WB only sticks into the path just a little bit, so it isn't even sampling all of the exhaust!

I'm in the WB+plug reading camp myself (its the difference between seeing a lean spike on boost and picking up rod and block chunks in the middle of the street). Thanks for all the insight guys! I would know very little if it was up to the people around me to teach me.

[Dave A.]

I need to take pictures of the plugs these days, to get a good read on them ..... My eyes aren't as good as they once were :(


Welcome to the world of middle age my friend. :) I have the same problem now at age 47 that started at somewhere around age 40. It's a PITA but a cheap pair of reading glasses does the trick for me, even though I look like an old fart when i wear them. :-)

[Dave A.]

I would have to disagree. While this may be correct for an EGT(that I'm not 100% sure on), a WB however, looks at the air that passes by it, if there is a leak before it, the sample is only smaller.


I over exaggerated a bit with a leak the size of a pinhole. A leak that small most likely won't affect a reading, but a larger leak can. At low engine speeds where the the volume of exhaust gas is less and exhaust system backpressure is also less, the pulsing action of the exhaust gases can actually allow a slight amount of air to be drawn into the exhaust system.

[Donn29]

I over exaggerated a bit with a leak the size of a pinhole. A leak that small most likely won't affect a reading, but a larger leak can. At low engine speeds where the the volume of exhaust gas is less and exhaust system backpressure is also less, the pulsing action of the exhaust gases can actually allow a slight amount of air to be drawn into the exhaust system.

Here I totally agree, at idle a WB is not very useful.

[BillyM]

I have two logs, one with no exhaust leaks, one with a HUGE exhaust leak from where I forgot to tighten the top two turbo/manifold bolts on the ct26 (<-idiot). AFR's under boost were identical. ...mind you it didn't build as much boost, but psi/afr up to 5psi was IDENTICAL.

Now things can be different on a NA, where you have pulses and lulls enough to pull in outside air, but running around wasting time tuning for power on a car with exhaust leaks is like driving your honduhh to a show-n-shine with a primered body kit. FIX YOUR SHIT.


For those casual readers who aren't going to research on reading plugs, I'll drop a few little tidbits.

What you see there on the tip of the porcelain on an engine driven under varying conditions has nothing to do with rich/lean under load. NOTHING. Tanya may be pushing 10:1 on that #5 plug at wide open, we flat can't tell... You gota look down in there and even then, coloration burns off quick under lean cruise and idle. Like dave says, if you want to use plugs to tune, you MUST isolate a running condition and make sure not to botch your samples (like idling down to a stop after that WOT pull).

Shawn, I've been toying with the idea of building up a spark plug photo'ing rig for my camera. It's a Cannon A570is, and accepts attachment lenses that are cheap enough I could build a little holder and a ring of LED's, set a manual focus and rock and roll them getting the same result on all plugs, while lighting all the way down in there. It'd be great to get a little how-to for those who don't want to pay to play the wideband game.

--billyM

[Dave A.]

Why is it that I'm getting the impression that both Shawn and I prefer the old days of tweaking carbs over the more modern days of EFI? LOL!!!!

I believe that using a wideband system is pretty much unavoidable and essential as a tuning aid if you're using a standalone EMS, but not really necessary on a stock engine that is using a stock ECU and a stock O2 sensor. In Tanya's case, the fact that she is running a pretty much stock 6MGE with a slightly higher CR and a more free breathing intake and exhaust system should keep the A/F ratios pretty much in check. The increase in CR is going to generate more combustion heat. Not much more, but some. With that in mind, she may benefit most from just simply running a slightly colder set of spark plugs and to get her hands on that JDM 6MGE AFM. :) I would also think it wise for her to run the colder plugs before her next dyno run for an added margin of safety (IE: avoiding the possibility of possibly running too hot on the "normal" plugs). It's always better to be slightly on the cooler side than the hotter side.

[BillyM]

Why is it that I'm getting the impression that both Shawn and I prefer the old days of tweaking carbs over the more modern days of EFI?...

...because you're both old and stubborn and need a reason why my car's faster and runs better?

Just guessing... Haha!

--billyM

[Dave A.]

:facesjump Shoot, I'll take a mechanical Hilborn or Enderle fuel injection system over a standalone electronic EMS anyday. At least they don't require an expensive wideband system and a silly laptop to get the job done, and done right. :) But adapting either one of those setups to a MKII Supra would of course be impossible. That is unless you happen to have a 1UZ swap and a hood scoop. LOL!!! EFI systems are just too frustrating and too complicated, but I suppose it just takes some time for some of us older folks who are used to working with mechanical systems for most of our lives to get used to messing with and becoming more aquainted with the electronic stuff.



Question for Tanya: Do the 6MGE's come from Japan with 182cc injectors that are the same as on a stock USDM or JDM 5MGE?

[Junkie]

Dave - Billy, I really don't miss working on Carb'ed engines anymore ;) Getting hands greasy vs. messing with electronics is a push, depends on the day. I will admit, EFI has done a LOT, to get rid of the inherent "stumble" we'd work on for days, back 25 years ago.

[Dave A.]

I can't help but think that there must be an easier and simpler way to tune a EFI system w/o having to fuss with digital mapping and all of the other fuss that goes along with it. :)

[Junkie]

Dave :D 10pm sat. night, leaky float, broken carb gasket, stripped threads, and no parts store open on sunday ..... Float is out of stock, 3-5 day wait, jets are special order, gasket only comes in a kit ..... Is techonology really that much more difficult, LOL.

Back on topic -- Tanya, let me know when your going to dyno again. If I'm not busy, I might come down .... good reason to come visit the PAP ;)

[Donn29]

I can't help but think that there must be an easier and simpler way to tune a EFI system w/o having to fuss with digital mapping and all of the other fuss that goes along with it. :)

An efi system does it all for you. The only time that the system in our cars doesn't work well is when the AFM is maxxed out.
Cams, CAI, Headers, and exhaust systems just allow more/cooler air to enter the engine (or leave it quicker). Therefore the ECU should see this difference and adjust.

[Tanya]

Question for Tanya: Do the 6MGE's come from Japan with 182cc injectors that are the same as on a stock USDM or JDM 5MGE?

Yep, the same beige topped 182 injectors.

It's been rumored for awhile that the 6M ECUs have a different fuel map, I assume bc of the lack of the EGR, and I also assume that's why the JDM AFMs have different part numbers.

Would like to put those theories to the test, but I don't have the money for numerous sets of spark plugs

[jtwhitehead]

any compression test numbers?

[Dave A.]

Yep, the same beige topped 182 injectors.

It's been rumored for awhile that the 6M ECUs have a different fuel map, I assume bc of the lack of the EGR, and I also assume that's why the JDM AFMs have different part numbers.

Would like to put those theories to the test, but I don't have the money for numerous sets of spark plugs



I'm assuming that you're currently running the stock beige topped injectors on your new 6M, yes? If so, do you have any idea how much fuel pressure you have with the Walbro fuel pump compared to the stock fuel pump?

[Dave A.]

Dave :D 10pm sat. night, leaky float, broken carb gasket, stripped threads, and no parts store open on sunday ..... Float is out of stock, 3-5 day wait, jets are special order, gasket only comes in a kit ..... Is techonology really that much more difficult, LOL.

:) You definitely have a point there, Shawn.


Donn29 ----- I see your point as well, but only with a bone stock EFI system. The standalone systems aren't quite as friendly (IE: The Megasquirt is a "experimental" EFI computer) I nearly panicked when I saw the pic. of an airplane flying with the experimental MS system on msefi.com.

[Tanya]

any compression test numbers?


Sadly, no. I wanted to do the compression test the day I took my plugs out, but I couldn't find the Chimp's tester and we were already running late for the mini-meet, so I didn't get to do it.



I'm assuming that you're currently running the stock beige topped injectors on your new 6M, yes? If so, do you have any idea how much fuel pressure you have with the Walbro fuel pump compared to the stock fuel pump?

Running the stockers that came with my 5M, yes. I have no idea what the fuel pressure is though. All I know is that Walbro gets noisy as hell when it's hot :faint:

[Dave A.]

Running the stockers that came with my 5M, yes. I have no idea what the fuel pressure is though. All I know is that Walbro gets noisy as hell when it's hot :faint:



What made you decide to go with the Walbro FP instead of a stock FP? Beck/Arnley makes a stock replacement pump that looks and performs just like the stock FP.

No need to stock up on several batches of spark plugs. I was just suggesting that you might want to invest in one set of plugs that are one step colder before your dyno run just in case your current plugs decide to run too hot at full WOT and cause some nasty things to happen (IE: pre-ignition, detonation, etc.)

[jtwhitehead]

so the real question is would the larger displacement and increased CR using stock fuel pressure regulator(36psi iirc) and pump necesitate larger injectors? im sure the are numbers to help support and/or disprove this. but i always go here to find it out. (dont know how to comp. these types of questions.) im sure there are a bunch of factors to it, but with stock efi, i would think there would be a little room for just a little fuel. i have put a step colder plug in and it does fell better, but there is just something in the higher rpms and when its cold that has me thinking 210's would be ideal for this motor. but only the dyno knows.

[Tanya]

Dave, Aaron had one here in stock already, so I just went with that.

I don't understand why these engines use 182cc injectors anyway, even the 4AGEs had larger injectors, why'd we get the shaft? Most 6M peeps go with 210cc, I wanted to go a step further with 295s but decided against that when I read how many clicks the AFM had to go back to get it to run right. Sounds like the ECU will like the 235s, so why not try? If my engine is putting out 180whp with 180 injectors, they should be damn near maxed out, yes?

[Dave A.]

Well, I'm sure the Toyota engineers had their reasons for using 182cc injectors on both the 5M and the 6M. The 4AGE, even though it's a smaller displacement engine, may actually breathe much better than a 5M or 6M and require the larger capacity injectors, but it's really hard to say for sure. The MZ12 Soarer certainly wasn't a lightweight car by any means, so I doubt that you are close to the max. on the 182's. Maybe 1/2 to 3/4. Do you have any way to monitor the injector pulse width? Perhaps you could do some datalogging during your next dyno run to monitor the pulse width of the 182's. The 182's will provide better fuel atomization than a larger sized injector at 36 psi of fuel pressure as long as they don't run out of juice, which I doubt that they will. The nozzles on the 4AGE 210cc injectors are also different than those on the 182's. There are two small holes on the 210cc injector nozzles to supply fuel independently to the two ports on the 16-valve 4AGE head. You want to stick with the single-hole spray pattern of the 182's.

[CJSREDPRA]

I don't understand why these engines use 182cc injectors anyway, even the 4AGEs had larger injectors, why'd we get the shaft? Most 6M peeps go with 210cc

From what I vaguely remember from way back on the SOGI list, (this is speculation, but it's what I remember reading) it was because the 6M ECU had a slightly different fuel map?? Thus the 182's. If you were still keeping the 5M ECU, then "at the time" we were told to go up to the 210's.

Since as you've said, you're now running 235's, I'm curious to see how the 6M ECU likes them.

<--- Also a fan of synthetic oil (I'm running Amsoil 10W30 in the Slug), but understands your reasons for wanting to stay w/ petroleum. My 5ME in the Slug shows oil leakage on the top of my valve cover, but this was due to a slight fuck-up on my part (I discovered 1 day on the freeway when I forgot to put the tranny into 4th gear O/D (was still in 3rd gear) & the motor was running at 70 mph/3200 rpms for about 10 minutes, that it put the oil pressure @ ~around 80 psi.... Whoops!!! (Oil pressure guage was between the "H" mark & the 3/4 mark). This motor does NOT like that!!! It's happy @ cruising speed when the oil pressure is between 40 psi - 60 psi (between the 1/2 mark & the 3/4 mark). I've had the 5MGE in the MKII @ high oil pressure before & I've had no leakage problems.

[Junkie]

Dave

182cc injectors, rated 182cc at 2.9 bar = basicaly 42psi. Operating system runs at 36psi, putting you at 85&#37; duty cycle at WOT = 145cc min. How can they not be running on the ragged edge, is the real question. I'm surprised we get as much as we do out of these things, without more fuel pressure, or bigger injectors as is. Then, look at the cam timing, and see how much fuel is scavenged and unburned. Leaves a guy thinking way to much somedays ;)

[Dave A.]

<--- Also a fan of synthetic oil (I'm running Amsoil 10W30 in the Slug)


Chris,
Glad to hear that you made the switch. :) Give this a try if you want to free up a little more power and MPG along with easier cold starts during the winter months.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/sso.aspx

[Tanya]

Chris, not running 235s yet... I have them, but they need to be cleaned, flowed and new o-rings and all that. No time or money right now.

[jtwhitehead]

the tips of the two different injectors look the same. is there a difference in pattern of spray or in tip design? sorry im confused. thinking of sending 8 210s to witchunter, hoping 6 will work with each other. they are advertising 18$ each. not bad.

[Dave A.]

the tips of the two different injectors look the same. is there a difference in pattern of spray or in tip design? sorry im confused. thinking of sending 8 210s to witchunter, hoping 6 will work with each other. they are advertising 18$ each. not bad.


The 210cc injectors from a 4AGE definitely have a different nozzle than the 182's. Maybe you have a set of 210's from a different engine that doesn't have a 16-valve or 24-valve head?

[Dave A.]

Dave

182cc injectors, rated 182cc at 2.9 bar = basicaly 42psi. Operating system runs at 36psi, putting you at 85&#37; duty cycle at WOT = 145cc min. How can they not be running on the ragged edge, is the real question. I'm surprised we get as much as we do out of these things, without more fuel pressure, or bigger injectors as is. Then, look at the cam timing, and see how much fuel is scavenged and unburned. Leaves a guy thinking way to much somedays ;)


Shawn,
Where did you get the rating of 182cc's at 42 psi? I'm just curious as usual. LOL!! The whole scenario is no doubt a bit of a brainteaser (and a headache), but I still can't help but wonder how Spearco managed to use the 182cc injectors to produce over 200+HP at 7 psi of boost with a stock fuel pump, stock fuel pressure, stock ECU, etc. with the only mod. being the increase in resistance to the engine temp. sensor circuitry during boost conditions. Maybe Spearco maxed them out under boost, but unfortunately, we may never know.

[jtwhitehead]

just looked at them and the have what appears to be the same nozzle. both sets of four came out of two different mr2s. 88 and 89.

[Dave A.]

just looked at them and the have what appears to be the same nozzle. both sets of four came out of two different mr2s. 88 and 89.


Oh, well no wonder. I thought you were comparing the 5M/6M 182cc injectors to the 210cc injectors. :duh: The 210cc injectors that you have from the MR2's should have nozzles that have two small holes on the tip.

[jtwhitehead]

they dont? i have pics but too stupid to figure out how to post them. i was coparing 5m(beige top), to 4age (blue top). both the 182 and the 210 have but one hole in the nozzle. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c61/JTwhitehead/injectors002.jpg sorry for the confusion. yeah my first incredibly terrible picture post.http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c61/JTwhitehead/injectors001.jpg

[Dave A.]

The server for the 86 online TSRM is jam packed at the moment, but here's the capacity test specs for the 182cc injectors from my 85 TSRM, page FI-55.

At stock fuel pressure: Volume - 40 -50cc/15seconds (2.4 - 3.1 cu in.)

[Dave A.]

they dont? i have pics but too stupid to figure out how to post them. i was coparing 5m(beige top), to 4age (blue top). both the 182 and the 210 have but one hole in the nozzle. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c61/JTwhitehead/injectors002.jpg sorry for the confusion. yeah my first incredibly terrible picture post.http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c61/JTwhitehead/injectors001.jpg


Weird!! I have a red top set from a 4AGE that has the two holes. What gives?

[jtwhitehead]

dunno. but these should have the same spray pattern as the 182s. wish i could have got a better pic. any who at 15&#37; bigger the 210s will do just fine as long as i set my afm back to the stock setting. besides the injectors in there now prolly aint that clean or flow right as it is. the 235 honda injectors are nearly 30% bigger and might have you up on the rich end of the board.

[Tanya]

Well I read that a member with a 6M ran 295s, but had to turn his AFM back 18 or so clicks to get it to run right... so obviously that is far too much. 235s should make the ECU happy, should only have to lean the AFM 5 clicks or so (guess).

[CJSREDPRA]

Well I read that a member with a 6M ran 295s, but had to turn his AFM back 18 or so clicks to get it to run right... so obviously that is far too much.

Yack... Wasn't that Vern??? I agree, way too much. There should have been another option.

[Junkie]

Dave, Matti and Helen's page ;) and I was off a bit. They are rated at 195cc at 2.9 bar, 182 at 2.55 bar. So in this case, we are rated at the operating psi. Paying attention to that little bit, changes things :D But still, they are right at peak, if not overworked.

[Junkie]

I just went and looked at a set of 210's JT, and they are the same. Honda units are also similar. 295's have 4 orifices and will be a different spray pattern..

Dave, you sure those redtops aren't 4agze units ? = 365cc's

[BillyM]

...Dave, you're incorrect on the injectors.

I've gone through a number of sets of bluetops, all have been single-nozzle.

--billyM

[Dave A.]

Dave, you sure those redtops aren't 4agze units ? = 365cc's


I got them out of a 88 Corolla FX-16 w/a 4AGE and the nozzle orifices match the illustration in my 88 TSRM for the Corolla. They are also high impedance with the round shaped connector. I don't know. Obviously the MR2 uses different injectors, but I find it odd that the MR2 injectors only have the single orifice.

[BillyM]

...rolla GTS have the bluetops with the single nozzle as well, as far as I know...

--billyM

[Junkie]

I'm with Billy. I have 2 sets of 6 here, and a set from my GTS, and all are blue single nozzle.

Dave, what connector plug do yours have ? Matti's page does show a pink 200cc, but with a plug/clip like the 7mge/gte. But, those injectors came from MAF engines, which IIRC, weren't available in the FX's.

I pretty much just use Matti's old site, as it always agreed with what I found in the yard when I worked there. It hasn't left me wondering, ever, until now ;)

[SilverMk2]

Only 85-87 4AGEs have the low impedance 210cc injector regardless of chassis. The later 4AGEs have high impedance 250cc injectors with a rounded 7M type connectors and I believe they are light purple cover.

[jtwhitehead]

must have been mistaken on the years of the mr2s but i could swear they were newer. last of the wedges. oh well who knows now. other than the crusher god. soory for the thread jack. we were talking plugs and meandered off toward injectors. but the injectors might have a lot to do with the plug readings. thanx. i feel better now.

[Dave A.]

The injectors that I have are the same style as the 7M injectors.


MKIII type: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=FI&P=83

MKII type: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/manual.aspx?Section=FI&P=53


Note that the MKIII "ball type" injectors have a larger diameter nozzle and use a larger diameter mounting insulator/grommet.


It's possible that the red tops that I have are a swap since the FX-16 that I got them from was in the J-yard, but they definitely have two small orifices on the nozzle tip. I'll take a pic. of one of them tomorrow and post it.

A well respected Toyota mechanic once told me to make sure that the wiring connectors on the injectors are facing straight up on 16-valve & 24-valve engines to ensure that the split spray from the two holes in the injector tip sprays directly at the same spot in the intake ports. I can see his point, but I can't say for sure if all 16-valve & 24-valve engines came stock with the ball-type injectors that have two orifices on the nozzle tip.

[CarFreek]

A well respected Toyota mechanic once told me to make sure that the wiring connectors on the injectors are facing straight up on 16-valve & 24-valve engines to ensure that the split spray from the two holes in the injector tip sprays directly at the same spot in the intake ports. I can see his point, but I can't say for sure if all 16-valve & 24-valve engines came stock with the ball-type injectors that have two orifices on the nozzle tip.Great Info, Dave! Gonna "Index" my injectors ASAP.

[Dave A.]

Here's a couple of pix of the red top high impedance injectors that I have. I discovered that I have 6 of these rather than 4 so they may actually be from a 7M rather than a 4AGE. Sorry for the poor lighting and the fuzzy focus. I hate taking pix with one hand. :-)


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/shutterbug427/Jun1907.jpg


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/shutterbug427/nozzle.jpg

[Tanya]

IIRC 7M engines only had yellow (295), green (315) and black (440) colored injectors.

Strange, that looks like the reddish-orange injectors for the 4AGZE listed on the geocities site, however they're listed as low impedance.

Closest matches are:

brown 13.8 200 2.9 cone (1) 3VZ-FE
red 13.8 200 2.9 ball (2) 2VZ-FE

acording to the old site.

This site may be more helpful (scroll to bottom)
http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0102&P=2

[Dave A.]

Hmmmm .... after further inspection, I don't think it's even a Nippon Denso (ND) injector because it doesn't have ND on it, but the part # is 23250-62020. Weird! Is there a web site that lists ND injectors by part #? The color is more of a mahogany/dark red and the manufacturer symbol looks like a triangle inside a circle. Strange!

[Donn29]

Hmmmm .... after further inspection, I don't think it's even a Nippon Denso (ND) injector because it doesn't have ND on it, but the part # is 23250-62020. Weird! Is there a web site that lists injectors by manufacturer and part #?


GOOOOOOGLE! FTW
http://www.google.ca/search?q=23250-62020&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

In the first result:

Toyota-Lexus 2507cc
(2VZFE) 23250-62020
6/Set $249.50
plus $60 refundable core chg.

[Tanya]

Oh look, seems I was right :)

[Dave A.]

So it's a reman'd injector for a 2VZFE. I have no idea why I would have a used set of 6 of these in the 1st place. :duh: < --( semi-senior moment) Ahh well, back on topic. :)

[StanS]

Does the fpr on a 6m engine have the same p/n as the one on a 5m or are the fuel pressures the same on both engines? Anyone measure the pressure on both engines?

Also, I was chasing after this info a few years ago and as i remember 3 peeps reported that they achieved ~300hp (280,300, and 310 is what i remember) on a stock 5mg fuel system. since they dyno'd I'd guess that they weren't running lean anywhere. So if you're not going over 300hp, why change ionjectors?

[Dave A.]

Very good point, Stan. Does the 6M also use the same J-pipe restrictor orifice in the fuel rail return line?

If all of the fuel system parts are the same on the 5M & 6M then I would think that using the Walbro pump alone would increase the fuel pressure since it's a higher volume pump than stock. The higher fuel pump volume equates to increased fuel pressure at the injectors, thereby causing the injectors to provide more fuel than 182cc's

[Tanya]

^I'd like to see stuff to back that up. Doesn't seem believeable that you can get 310whp with 182 injectors, regardless of fuel pressure. But then again, I don't know jack about this anyway.

Edit* pretty sure the 6M uses the same fuel stuff as the 5M. Same fuel rail, FPR, etc. Just the AFM and ECU appear to be different.

[Dave A.]

We know pretty much for certain that 230-240 HP can be achieved w/the stock 5M fuel system components. I think the best logical approach at this point IMHO is to datalog the 182cc injectors on your next dyno run and see where they fair before swapping over to larger injectors. If you don't have access to a datalogging system, you can monitor the injector pulse width during the dyno run with a portable or handheld oscilloscope.

[BillyM]

300 on stock injectors would require ~100-110psi at the rail...

Problem is, stock ECU doesn't increase the injector pulsewidth more than stock regardless of what you do. Remember, the AFM isn't opening any more at 5000rpm wide open if you are making 130rwhp, or 1300rwhp...

--billyM

[Dave A.]

Problem is, stock ECU doesn't increase the injector pulsewidth more than stock regardless of what you do. Remember, the AFM isn't opening any more at 5000rpm wide open if you are making 130rwhp, or 1300rwhp...

--billyM


Yes, but since Tanya is no longer seeing the CEL with the 6M ECU then something has changed. This leads me to think that perhaps the 6M ECU is programmed to provide a broader range of the pulse width on the 182's than the 5M ECU. Provided that all of the EFI system components are exactly the same on the 5M & 6M w/the exception of the ECU & AFM, then the only critical missing component is the 6M AFM at this point. The 6M came stock with 182's for a reason, and I now have a feeling that the 6M ECU & AFM play a key role in allowing the 182's to perform adequately on the 6M.

[Tanya]

Dave, you're starting to make some sense to me, LOL

I have been flogging the Aussies on toymods for a 6M AFM, but no luck yet. I know those blokes have them! RAWR

[Dave A.]

:facesjump LOL!! I'm sure glad that at least for once my brain appears to be working correctly. Sometimes you just have to relax and kick back and take a close look at the whole picture. I want to say that the Toyota engineers from yesteryear were sneaky little devils, but they were just simply smart little devils with nothing to hide .... except from us. :) Keep hounding the Aussies on the AFM. One of them is bound to make you an offer sooner or later.

[Dave A.]

Have you tried looking on eBay Japan? http://www.sekaimon.com/

I would do a search but obviously I can't. You can sign in using your U.S. eBay username and password. Where is Satoshi when we need him? LOL!!!

I have no idea what this is saying: http://www.sekaimon.com/ItemListReg.do?reg_param=srch&srch_category_id=0&srch_keyword=Toyota+AFM+22250-43160&x=21&y=11&aoSearch=AND

[Rosso]

Sorry I'm late.
It say "We did not find results for it."
I searched for 6M AFM in Japanese Yahoo auction but couldn't find any.
I'll keep my eye for it.

By the way, I didn't know there's Sekaimon till now.
It's looks like Rinkya for Japanese.
This site makes Japanese easier to buy stuffs from eBay.
I have eBay account so don't think I will use this but interesting!
So I don't think you don't have to use this Sekaimon site because it will show stuffs in eBay, not Japanese seller if I'm correct.
I'll check this place more.

[StanS]

If the 5M and 6M have the same fuel system parts/rails/tubing then raising the fuel pump capability would do nothing to increase fuel flow since fp is determined by the fpr.

One of the 3 peeps who claimed ~300hp on a turbo'ed 5mg with a stock fuel system was Russ Matusovitch who volunteered the posting on the yahoo mk2 forum. Then I asked on the forum and 2 other peeps responded claiming similar results.

iirc, the tsrm says that testing the stock injectors should give 182 cc/min running continuously, that is 100&#37; of the time which I don't think that the ecu ever does. Maybe they were going lean. I discussed this in my postings 2 years ago.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 6M displacement is 7.5% larger than the 5M and the higher flow spec'd on the 182cc injectors at higher pressure is 196cc which is 7.7% higher flow. So I would expect the fpr on the 6M to be set to a higher pressure than the fpr on the 5M.

I guess that u should tighten the 5M AFM spring a bit when using it on a 6M since I believe that a 5 AFM on a 5 engine opens completely at 6500 rpm (maybe a bit more rpm) and that u want the 5 AFM on a 6 engine to also open completely at 6500 rpm assuming that the 6 fpr is set to give 196cc. (have to think more about this).

Anyone have any dyno runs with A/F ratio on a 6 engine using a 5 AFM? We could compare that with the toy published 6M dyno info.

[Dave A.]

Why wouldn't the fuel pressure increase if the FPR calibration and the restrictor in the J-pipe fitting is the same w/a higher volume fuel pump (Walbro)?

The 6M AFM more than likely has 1 or 2 differences, or both. 1 being a different flap tension spring calibration and 2 being a different potentiometer resistance curve.

The 3.0L 6MGE came stock with 182cc injectors, which technically should mean that the 182's will supply enough fuel to support the 3.0L's of displacement.




I think perhaps we need to leave Tanya alone here at this point and leave the flow calculations & mathematics for another topic so we can quit confusing her and just let her do her own thing. :)

[Tanya]

Well Aaron put down 207whp with his turbo 5M on 182cc injectors but was using a RRFPR.

So obviously, getting 200+ hp out of the injectors is possible in boosted aplication, but how to do that in a NA? RRFPR isn't going to do me any good. Besides, I think Anything over 60psi is a bit overkill, I'd rather just use the 235s at stock psi and see what happens. Boom? LOL

I dunno, this whole discussion is giving me a headache.

[Dave A.]

obviously, getting 200+ hp out of the injectors is possible in a boosted aplication, but how to do that in a NA?



Increase the compression ratio. :-)

[Dave A.]

Besides, I think Anything over 60psi is a bit overkill.


And dangerous!

[Tanya]

compression ratio is around 9.7:1 now.

[Dave A.]

I'd rather just use the 235s at stock psi and see what happens. Boom? LOL



Black smoke at WOT. :)

[Dave A.]

compression ratio is around 9.7:1 now.


Yes, so go for it. Just be sure to run some high octane fuel.

[Dave A.]

I dunno, this whole discussion is giving me a headache.



Well, 90+replies and counting for a silly spark plug reading is enough to give anyone a headache.:rolleyes: :duh:

[Tanya]

Yep, have been running 92 octane since my 2nd dyno (graph was showing detonation w/ 89 octane)

Black smoke at WOT is something I'm used to, LOL At least with my other 5M cars.

My hope with the 235s is that I can adjust the afm to get it to run comfortably, and hoping the 6M ECU will like it.

[Dave A.]

Have you done a spark plug reading since the 6M ECU install? There's way too much fuss going on in this thread for me to remember. Black smoke is an indicator that you're running too rich (too much fuel). The detonation during your first couple of dyno runs could've been caused by the 5M ECU running the 6M engine too lean.

Take your car out for another WOT run through the gears w/the 6M ECU installed and post another pic. of the plugs.

[Tanya]

No, haven't done another spark plug reading w/ the 6M ECU. As far as I know, this engine doesn't blow black smoke at WOT, BUT then again I don't usually have anyone behind me telling me if I am or not.

I'll probably do the WOT run and SP reading again when I can get my hands on a compression tester

[Dave A.]

Sounds like a plan to me. :) You can probably rent one for free w/ a deposit from an auto parts store.

[Dave A.]

BTW, the TSRM test specs for the 5M injector flow of 40-50cc's for 15 seconds at stock fuel pressure means that the stock grey top injectors could flow anywhere between 160cc's - 200cc's per minute with the average mid-reading being 180cc's per minute.


In all honesty, I think you will be fine with the 182cc injectors as long as you keep using the 6MGE ECU. Increasing the injector capacity to 235cc's could possibly cause your engine to run extra rich, cause excessive carbon build-up and wash the oil film off the cylinder walls if you're not careful. Better to start small and monitor the pulse width and the duty cycle on the 182's while on the dyno and then take it from there.

[StanS]

Dave A posted
"Why wouldn't the fuel pressure increase if the FPR calibration and the restrictor in the J-pipe fitting is the same w/a higher volume fuel pump (Walbro)?"

Cause FPR stands for Fuel Pressure Regulator which means it keeps the fuel pressure the same at any operating point regardless of the fp capacity. The only time a higher capacity pump will increase fuel pressure is if the capacity of the original pump is insufficient to maintain the pressure at high flow rates.

"The 3.0L 6MGE came stock with 182cc injectors, which technically should mean that the 182's will supply enough fuel to support the 3.0L's of displacement."

Especially if the 6 fpr is running at higher pressure than the 5 fpr so that the injectors are putting out 196cc since this will almost exactly compensate for the incresaed displacement of the 6 over the 5. As I said earlier the increased fuel pressure will give 7.7&#37; more fuel at the same pulsewidth to compensate for the 7.5% increased displacement and airflow of the 6 over the 5. It would be nice if someone would measure the 6 fuel pressure, a simple enough thing to do if they're set up for it. I would but I'm incapable of doing it.

[Tanya]

Damnit, am I going to have to hunt down part numbers for the 5m FPR and 6M FPR? I am pretty sure they're the same, but I guess I need proof to disprove the higher pressure theory.

[StanS]

T
Please do. It's very hard to believe that the spec'd operating points of the injectors exactly compensate for the increased displacement is an accident. This must've been done by design and I will be very surprised if the 5 and 6 fpr's are set at the same pressure.

[Dave A.]

The FPR works by simply bypassing a specific quantity of fuel back to the fuel tank in order to maintain a preset amount of fuel pressure at the fuel rail. The increase in fuel pressure with the same FPR is due to the fact that the fuel pump is a positive displacement type pump combined with the restrictor orifice in the J-pipe. If you increase the volume of fuel to the fuel rail by installing a higher volume fuel pump, the operating pressure(s) will increase as long as the size of the restrictor orifice in the return line J-pipe remains unchanged.


The 6MGE ECU most likely has a different fuel map than the 5MGE ECU, thereby allowing the 182cc injectors to provide the necessary increase in fuel delivery. This has been verified by the fact that the CEL no longer comes on due to the O2 sensor detecting a lean condition during WOT operation.






Sorry for all of the crazy babble, Tanya! Maybe the FPR has a part number stamped on it somewhere?

[Tanya]

I'm just having a friend who works at Toyota run the #s, may be awhile before I hear back from him though.

[Dave A.]

I just looked at a 5MGE FPR and the part# is stamped on it just below the vacuum line connection.

Toyota part# 23280-43020


Tanya,
Do you have the FPR that came with your 6M?

[Dave A.]

Here's a low res. pic. of the restrictor orifice in the so called fuel return line "J-pipe". :-) There is no part# stamped anywhere on this part. The silly thing looks like some sort of drug paraphenalia to me. LOL!!!

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/shutterbug427/restrictor.jpg

[Tanya]

I bought just a 6M block, no FPR, which is why I asked my Toyota buddy for the #s

[jtwhitehead]

when i built my motor, there is a difference in the j-tube from the 5 to the 6. it looked a little different, but im not sure if the hole is smaller. here is something that has had me thinking. i built a 6mge out of domestic parts, i.e. early 7m crank and rods, and put them in a later model 5m block. the only parts on the motor that are from a 6m is the pulley(now,yeah) and the front timing cover. i dont and wont have a 6m ecu or a 6m afm. that is why i think the 210cc injectors with a stock afm setting would benefit my motor. the only cel that i ever had was a bad O2 sensor. im sure with a complete 6m swap,with the ecu and the afm, the 182cc injectors would suffice. me not having those things im looking for a feasable alternative.( i have a set of 210s). my plugs looked like tanyas with just a skoatch of lean to them. also when the thing is cold it runs like a bat out of hell, but get warm and it falls off at the higher rpms. ive never seen black smoke out of it either. so 15&#37; bigger injectors is what i came up with. another alternative would be an aftermarket fpr, to give the 182 enough pressure to compensate for the displacement and the comp. that is some thing that has not been covered really in this thread. both tanya and i have a higher cr than the stock 6m. mine might be a tad more due to the machining the motor has been through in its life. block decked enough to remove all gasket gunk and the head milled once then again to smooth it over for the build. i may be pushing around 10:1+ cr. there lets see who has some insight?

[Dave A.]

Several peeps have run the 210cc injectors with the 5M ECU and have had pretty good results. The fact that your car runs better when it's cold is probably due to the fact the ECU is supplying more fuel at that point. We really won't know much more until the part# for the 6M FPR is posted. There may be a whole slew of differences between the 5M & 6M fuel systems, but at least we are gradually getting to the point of confirming the most obvious differences.

[StanS]

Dave A posted:
"The FPR works by simply bypassing a specific quantity of fuel back to the fuel tank in order to maintain a preset amount of fuel pressure at the fuel rail. The increase in fuel pressure with the same FPR is due to the fact that the fuel pump is a positive displacement type pump combined with the restrictor orifice in the J-pipe. If you increase the volume of fuel to the fuel rail by installing a higher volume fuel pump, the operating pressure(s) will increase as long as the size of the restrictor orifice in the return line J-pipe remains unchanged."

So you overwhelm the FPR control and you can have high pressure at low loads and maybe somewhere as the rising manifold pressure as load increases the FPR starts to regulate and you haven't the faintest idea at what pressure since it's a function of the fp capacity. imo, this is a terrible way to operate since you've changed a closed loop system to an open loop sysem i.e., the fpr has lost control and if the capacity of the fp changes, say due to lower driving voltage or aging or fuel filter reducing flow a bit, then the fuel pressure changes and engine operating characteristics changes.

JtWhitehead posted:
"when the thing is cold it runs like a bat out of hell, but get warm and it falls off at the higher rpm"

If you don't have CAI then engine warming could explain this.

Can't someone measure the fp on a 6m engine? Comparing P/N's only says that the fpr's are different.

[Tanya]

-.-

It's going to be incredibly hard to get someone here in the states that has a real 6MGE FPR. Most people swap the 6M intake manifold with 5M intake manifold due to emissions crap, and some people don't even GET intakes on their engines.

[Dave A.]

Stan,
What you just posted is good info., but I was merely just pointing out why the fuel pressure would increase with a higher volume fuel pump, which you barked about in an earlier post. Yes, it is a sloppy way of regulating fuel pressure(s), no doubt about it. I suspect that this is the reason why Tanya is hearing a loud growl from the Walbro pump. The high volume Walbro pump is probably experiencing excessive backpressure at this point, especially under conditions other than idle where the FPR isn't allowed to open more with engine vacuum. We still need to know if the 6M FPR has a different calibration than the 5M FPR before we can go any further with this discussion, though it would also be useful to know if the MZ12 Soarer used a different fuel pump than the MKII Supra. If both FPR's turn out to have the same part# then it is more likely that the fuel pumps could be the same as well. BTW, you have a 6MGE. Did your engine come with the original FPR?

The more specifics that can be gathered in regards to fuel system part numbers between the 5MGE MKII & the 6MGE MZ12 Soarer, the more we can precisely match parts together, but we can only expect Tanya to do so much!

[walkerhiboost]

Sorry T, I haven't been keeping up with threads lately...

Is there something I can compare for you off of my 6M?

FYI: When we dropped the 6M in Whitey, we bypassed the J-tube by just installing the fuel line straight to the rail...

[Tanya]

part # off the fuel pressure regulator, IF it is a true 6M and only if that fpr CAME on that 6M and not swapped from a 5M...

also waiting for someone on toymods to get back to me with #s

[Dave A.]

FYI: When we dropped the 6M in Whitey, we bypassed the J-tube by just installing the fuel line straight to the rail...


Oh great! Now Stan's going to have a real sh-- fit. :rolleyes: Why did you bypass the restrictor pipe??

[jtwhitehead]

stan, not sure i understand the CAI thing. i know it means cold air intake, right? but why would i introduce more dense cooler air to an already what i suspect lean condition? maybe im missing something. i do have a modified intake, but no means does it draw in any cooler air than in the engine bay. no headers as well. my motor is in pretty much stock trim. the only other mod to the engine is the afm mod. all that other stuff will come later.

[StanS]

Dave A posted:
"Yes, it is a sloppy way of regulating fuel pressure(s), no doubt about it."

If you overwhelm the fpr then you're not regulting fuel pressure at all. It's as if you've removed the fpr. Why did toy put a fpr in the first place? If u dyno the car and set up everything perfectly and then something changes in the stock fuel system, like crud in the fuel filter (or different pressure under wot vs. light load where the ecu is calibrating the injectors to the afm), the fpr maintains the pressure constant so the injector output is unchanged. If u overwhelm the fpr with a overly high capacity fp then the injector output will reduce as the filter gets dirtier. Remember also that at wot the ecu puts out calculated injector fuel flow and it assumes that fuel pressure is the same at wot and light load taking into account the change in intake mani pressure.

T said:

"Most people swap the 6M intake manifold with 5M intake manifold due to emissions crap,"

My intake mani says 3000 on it but I do have egr. I'll ask the mechanic who installed it if he switched the fpr. I'm pretty sure that he switched the fuel rail and the fpr.

JTWhitehead said:

"but why would i introduce more dense cooler air to an already what i suspect lean condition?"

I wasn't suggesting that you add cai. I was trying to suggest a reason why you lost power when the engine heated up, i.e. you get less (dense) air. If u had cai the air temp and density wouldn't change as the engine bay got hotter.

[Dave A.]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300233956953&_trksid=p2759.l1259


I just asked the eBay member selling this engine if they could get the part# off of the FPR for me.

[Tanya]

3000 pipe or 3000 intake plenum w/ EGR? If plenum, someone had a fun time drilling into it for the EGR ports.

Oh, and I also bypassed the J tube w/ my fuel filter relocation

[BillyM]

...if you put your fuel filter in the line that originally went to the J-tube, you're in bigger trouble than a little lean-ness...

Think about it...

--billyM

[Tanya]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd108/wilbo666/z1xfuelregpump.png

Fuel system is the same, it's just the electronics that are different.

[Dave A.]

Hmmmm ..... except for the fuel pump. The current part# for the 84-86 MKII in-tank FP is 23220-16084.


Also, the FPR works in conjunction with the restrictor J-pipe to maintain proper fuel pressures in the fuel rail.

[Tanya]

Well the Chimp arranged all that, bypassing the tube for the relocation. Engine seems to run just fine w/o it. It has a steady idle, gets 20mpg even when getting flogged repeatedly, etc.

[Dave A.]

That's most likely due to the high volume Walbro fuel pump. If it were me, I would re-connect the J-pipe and swap the Walbro FP for the Toyota FP and then measure the fuel pressure at the fuel rail with a pressure gauge. If that's not doable, then I would at least check the fuel pressure with a pressure gauge with your current setup to see how much pressure is in the fuel rail with the high volume FP without the restrictor in the fuel return line. Too much FP can damage the FPR and/or the fuel pulsation damper and cause a possible large fuel leak. The parts may hold up for awhile before they actually fail, but seriously, you would be much safer knowing what the FP is without just simply guessing at this point.

[Tanya]

Yes, because changing in-tank fuel pumps are easy, quick and SO much fun.

Hahahah, no!

[BillyM]

JUST MEASURE YOUR FARKIN FUEL PRESSURE! In the time it has taken to look into the 5m/6m FPR, any of us could have zipped down to ADV/AZ and actually VERIFIED it...

This isn't directly aimed at you Tanya, but for everyone else embracing the "replace post-haste" method of issue resolution, GROW UP. We live in an age where 4-source datalogging units cost less than $150, where 0.01psi resolution sensors cost less than $20, and where our local auto parts stores allow you to borrow expensive testing equipment for FREE.

All this blah blah blah, it accomplishes NOTHING except wasting bandwidth and time...

TEST
DIAGNOSE
RESOLVE

not:
GUESS
REPLACE/WASTE
HOPE

--BillyM

[Tanya]

Hay guy, no need to yell! >:O

[Dave A.]

Should I take this to mean that altering a well balanced & well engineered fuel system that has been proven safe over the years with an aftermarket FP and bypassing the J-pipe is not a Guess/Replace/Waste/Hope approach? I think it is. There's probably a gazillion MKII owners that have made the very same mods to the fuel system and don't have the slightest clue what the pressures are on the modified fuel system. That's pretty sad considering the safety factors that are involved. All of the constant fuss up to this point isn't completely the result of not growing up (heck, I'm pushing 50), but more of a concern for Tanya's safety (at least from my viewpoint).

Yes, this whole thread has been a terrible waste of bandwidth, but at least we now know what the proper fuel system is for a MKII w/ a 6MGE conversion, and more importantly, what is required to make and keep the conversion safe.

The fuel pressures aren't terribly difficult to check, Tanya. Please do the tests so we can all stop our babbling and fussing like a bunch of stubborn boneheaded mechanical engineers in a testing facility. :-)

[StanS]

I looked at my 6 intake mani which was in the basement and not on my car. T, since you found the P/N's you saved me the job of cleaning the fpr and looking for the P/N tomorrow.

As for getting 300hp on a stock system, consider that autoshop101 says (somewhere) that a stock wot fuel system uses no more than 5&#37; of the volume of fuel that passes thru the fuel rail. The other 95% is used to cool the fuel rail, so doubling the fuel used from 5% to 10% to generate double the hp doesn't seem unreasonable except that the rail might overheat under continuous hard use.

T, if you're going to stay NA why not go back to the stock fuel system cause you'll be lucky to do 250 hp. I don't know what hp I was generating but I had every conceivable NA intake breathing mod (cai, big air box, enlarged air box backplate collector opening with smooth tapered coupling to afm, wrapped insulated afm, minimum intake pipe bends, 3" dia intake plastic pipe, tapered intake pipe to tb coupling, and manifold and iscm coolant bypass, missed wrapping the intake mani) and a well wrapped dt header with a 2.5 exhaust, ultra hi flo cat, and flow thru muffler. I used the stock fuel system with no issues. Unfortunately the header was so well wrapped that it eventually melted.

Someone with a 6m with a stock fuel system might want to dyno their setup and tighten and then loosen the AFM spring a few notches to get the best Lambda, remembering to run the engine for a minimum of 2 minutes at light load between runs so the ecu has time to recalibrate the fuel map to the new afm setting.

[Tanya]

The only thing not stock about my fuel system is the fuel filter relocation and the Walbro fuel pump. I damn sure am not spending ANOTHER $100 to get a stock pump and I don't see anything wrong with my fuel filter setup.

Don't have a fuel pressure tester available to me, so I can't check the pressure anytime soon.

[BillyM]

...but autozone does...

--billyM

[Tanya]

I realize that. I'm sure I can borrow someones though for the time being.

[Dave A.]

used cold-start injector hose ------------- 5-finger discount
0-100 psi pressure gauge ----------------- $ 5.95
brass hose barb fitting -------------------- $ 1.95
brass coupler to adapt gauge to fitting -- $ 1.95

:-)

[Tanya]

Ok, guys. I really do appreciate your concern and help, but hounding me to do this is not putting money in my pocket. I have other expenses that I needed to take care of first, so now I am broke and I really don't want to be flogged with this issue any longer. I didn't want to post what I am posting now, but I feel like this wouldn't get left alone. I straight up do not have the $, whether it's $1 or $500. Period.

Car has been running without fuel leaks since April, has 4,000 miles on it, no need to act like it's a ticking time bomb. I am quite sure Aaron knew what he was doing when he put it together for me. There are high pressure fuel hoses being used, not paper straws.

[Dave A.]

Sorry!! No flogging intended! Just a way to save a little money is all. I'm going to hush up now. Hopefully the others will do the same.