High compression VS Turbo

[mavrick666999]

Ok im trying to decide on my new engine in which i will be starting here soon. I have the block im working on the pistons,crank and connecting rods for a bored 30 over 6M.

My question as the topic suggest is what are the ups and downs of a HC engine VS a turbo motor. I know a turboed engine is high compression after the air in forced in. But im also looking at longevity here. If i go turbo it will be mild boost 8-10 pounds out of a CT-26 with 7MGTE injectors as far as i can tell this should be a good longterm engine.

If i go high compression then im looking at 11:1 around that way. I havnt worked out all the info yet so if im way off base here please feel free to teach me. But in my thoughts a High compression engine doesnt go thru the pressure flux that a turbo engine does.

What im asking is what type of power can you get from a HC engine. Is it close to a turbo engine. If i do go HC what types of injectors are used if any difference from a turbo. What are the dangers of HC any benefits

Thanks for the help in advance.

[Chrisfrom1986]

This is one of the most redundant over posted thread topics ever. USE SEARCH.

[BillyM]

RaceGas vs PumpGas
170rwhp vs 200+rwhp
12mpg vs 20mpg

--billyM

[pituala]

Yes, 451rwhp with 20-21mpg rocks ;)

[SilverMk2]

Put a stock 7MGTE with and exhaust and downpipe in it. You'll have an engine that runs like stock and will make 220-240rwhp. I've been both routes and the 7M in a Mk2 is a perfect combo for the buck. The trick is that you have to rebuild the motor. Too many people buy clapped out Mk3s crank the boost to the moon and when the motor goes poof complain about the 7M. If you can swing the extra dough and difficulty of the swap the JZ motors are an even better combo.

[Tanya]

I know my old 6M, wasn't even over 10:1 compression, and was throwing out 210psi/ cylinder. That thing felt torquey all the time, I loved it. Regardless of the actual dyno numbers that BillyM likes to toss around so much, a high comp 6M is crazy fun still. And I'm pretty sure if things had been done differently, it would have still gotten good mpg (it did get 25mpg on the first tank, right before the fuel pump went out and I switched to Walbro 255lph)

[Soulbait]

N/A = Less moving parts then a turbo, fewer things that could break, less places for leaks (vacuum/oil).

I've been wishy washy all over the bored on what engine i want in my Supra...right now I'm either thinking high comp 2jz-ge for N/A or 1jz-gte if i want turbo...

See if you can go drive someone's Turbo'd mk2 if anyone is in your area, or wait for a meet and try one. Try it before you decide...it's why I haven't decided...I haven't driven a Turbo'd MK2 yet...not in a real hurry...I'm still a few years out on which engine I'm throwing in my car...

[pituala]

N/A = Less moving parts then a turbo, fewer things that could break, less places for leaks (vacuum/oil).

I've been wishy washy all over the bored on what engine i want in my Supra...right now I'm either thinking high comp 2jz-ge for N/A or 1jz-gte if i want turbo...

See if you can go drive someone's Turbo'd mk2 if anyone is in your area, or wait for a meet and try one. Try it before you decide...it's why I haven't decided...I haven't driven a Turbo'd MK2 yet...not in a real hurry...I'm still a few years out on which engine I'm throwing in my car...


If you're ever in SoFla, come by for a ride ;)

[Soulbait]

now i've been for a ride in a couple but still haven't driven one :D

[pituala]

I'll let you drive it....if you can ;) :D

[jtwhitehead]

that depends on the motor imho. if you kept with the 5/6m motor, it would probably be better to go with the high comp setup. there would be so much aftermarket fuel management needed to keep it reliable you could fund a good 7mgte swap. which is where the boost part of my opinion comes from. turbo+reliability=7mgte. its proven on this forum again and again. now if you do decice to go high comp, do it right. balance your rotating assemly, rods and pistons too. do the cam thing with some good adjustable gears and maybe even bigger valves and some headwork to boot. not to mention the exhaust. you can get about 175 rwhp out of a well built 6m with stock ecu. maybe more with a sfc. more wires though. i personally like the n/a aspect of the build. but if its speed then its a turbo which means its should be a 7mgte. but thats just my opinion. i do have a highcomp motor, not very well built, but it works good. dont have the other really good mods to really enjoy the high comp, but its there when i get them. but at te same time ive got a 7mgte on a stand in the garage. mama, i wanna go fast. dont be fooled, 180+ natty horses will make your car move. very reliable as well. lighter and a bit easier to work on when you had to. for parts, there forged if you got the money, but a good 85+ piston will work, just get it 30 oversized. head studs are nice too. try to find a real 7m crank 90+ later 7m's. they were totally counter balanced. then get the 7mgte rods for the oil squirters. gonna need the front main seal for a 6/7m also. skies the limit. they both have their goods and bads. i just wish i could have built the natty car i really wanted to. i still might just to stuff it in a cressy for my next dd.

[Junkie]

now i've been for a ride in a couple but still haven't driven one :D


Can't believe you didn't get a chance while Ken was here. Both Athena, and Cristine, were whors for the day ....

Mav -- This is material for - The Great Debate ;)

What are you looking for from the car/build ?

Budget ? Be realistic ...

HP/TQ and Fuel Mileage is an issue ?



See if you can pin me down for 15+ minutes at the NE meet. I'll make your brain swim, in very little time :D

[mavrick666999]

Well budget really isnt the issue im going to take my time. I love the sounds of turboed engines. But i know a turbo can lead to problems for a first time turbo builder. I know the knowledge on this fourms is eminence and vast.

I know what a HC motor can do i have seen them ( i know of a cavi. that runs 3-4 sec 1/8 mile N/A 1600+ HP). The roads around here are windy ( ask donkey) im looking for 300 Hp to the ground i feel thats all i need twice of what i have now.

Im looking at a budget in the end of 2-3 grand closer to 2 grand i hope this includes some other upgrades all on the driveing side. My suspension isnt 2 years old so i think it would be ok with 300 horse's.

One of the things im not sure on is the Tq of the engine. Im leaning more towards turbo right now like i said bored 30 over and 10 psi. Any ideas on the Tq range and horse power range of those figures junkie?

[BillyM]

If you want 300 to the ground, you're beyond NA territory, at almost any price range.

...I still stand by my long-time findings, that if you want 140-170rwhp, stay NA, if you want 225-250rwhp, you can get away with the 5m turbo'd with piggybacks and add-ons. Anything more, nab a 7m or go full-monty on the engine-management on the 5m..

--billyM

[CarFreek]

See if you can go drive someone's Turbo'd mk2 if anyone is in your area, or wait for a meet and try one. Try it before you decide...it's why I haven't decided...I haven't driven a Turbo'd MK2 yet...not in a real hurry...I'm still a few years out on which engine I'm throwing in my car...All you locals know you have a standing invitation to drive Christine-Most of you who havent have turned me down at least once. First rides I had hooked me, first drive just planted the hook. I am the cheapest person I know, and I drive my 7MGTE everyday. They were reliable in the MK3, they can be reliable in the MK2. I dynoed 250hp/260 tq @10 psi-good luck getting there N/A without big $$$$$$$. I can tell you that I had a relatively strong(dynoed 160+ hp)6M, and the N/A engine had better sound, and slightly better throttle response, but the turbo is better, by far, in every other department. Not even close.

[935motorsports]

Put a stock 1jzgte with and exhaust and downpipe in it. You'll have an engine that runs like stock and will make 280-300rwhp.

Fixed that statement, and no need to rebuild. Motorset costs $650.

[Junkie]

Robert, 1jzgte w/ecu, harness, map sensor, all other electronics ?


300whp is definately boost territory, as mentioned above ..... unless you like rebuilding every couple weeks, at best :D

[Norbie]

im looking for 300 Hp to the ground i feel thats all i need
Stop dreaming and have a look at the cars people have actually built, and their real-world results. There are no NA Supras even close to 300rwhp. None. The only guy who stands a chance is Crambo with his 5L V12. A 5M/6M getting up there is frankly laughable.

Hell, not even all of the turbo guys have 300rwhp.

[DRIFTINGmy85]

I've recently heard about inertia 'super' charging the intake air.
It was explained to me that this is what Pro-Stock race cars do.
Timing the intake valve to close earlier and at high revs the incoming air is compressed behind the intake valve.
I was told a n/a engine can reach a VE of 130% this way.

Does anyone know of someone doing this on a n/a 5m/6m?

[sarinas_dragons]

This thread needs something...

[sarinas_dragons]

I think you need to tell us with what do you have experience?

I can tell you I can explain what it will take but I have it down to a demi-science how to get you what you want. The practical responses you've received revive a favorite topic of mine, though.

I wonder why you care if the pounds-per-square inch exerted on the piston crowns are naturally-aspirated, sprayed or boosted? This is just my natural curiousity improved with extra beer.

[Tanya]

^He will make your head explode.



If you're a newb, I highly suggest you stay NA and get a spare mk2, to experiment boost on. You'll probably break a lot of things as a newbie and your car will be down for long periods of time

[mavrick666999]

Well im not going turboed 5M ill be frankensteined 6M. I understand that 300 HP in a N/A car is hard. The statement that 300 is hard to reach with a turboed engine i wouldnt beleive you. I read about a bored 6M making 200-250 on a dyno.

Now that im looking a 1jzgte is looking enticing I need to check availability of them and who does the wiring harness's for them ( junkie is this your territory)

My abilities stem from mostly chevys and domestics. My intelligence is high enough to do anything with the right tools. The next question is do i have the right tools yes. What i dont have i access to a full garage and over 20 grand in tools of close friends. More mechanic friends to shake a stick at. Once again i also have the brains and geniuses on this site.

Im not a newb to turbos ( i work with big rigs ) im just new to building them. We just diagnose and replace were i work at.

So im going turbo if i stay 6M bored 30 over 7M injectors ct-26 running 10 pounds is 250-300 reliable horse power do able? Or do i need to go 1jz? Did i put a light to the end of this tunnel?

[sarinas_dragons]

at the moment it's just some li'l wayne and 48ozs of Miller high-life

But I meant what can you handle driving-wise. When putting it down many members have have the power for low traps but they don't have the traction.

I like the idea of an n/a build that used Toyota's hotrod head, the 7M on a 5M. I've posted up other crap that the 7M head is as good if not better than a 5M head with .413 lift cams that would require higher valve seat forces from upgraded springs. This would created greater drag where the 7M creates around 20% less parasitic drag based on valve spring seat forces alone.

Good prices on 5M cams are available but I ask myself can you handle the power this combination can make? It allows for a redline around 7800. I'd like to see anyone drive this combination to it's potential. It wouldn't be easy in a MKII.

I think the obvious difference with Mikey's car is the powerband. If you were asking two people which they'd prefer- then you'd only get two answers. But if you just drove an n/a car and a turbo car with the same power levels, the difference would be tractability.

[mavrick666999]

I can handle anything i grew up racing semi pro no str8t line. Four wheelers and carts all in "road course" style tracks. I have driven an old 67 vette with about 600 at the motor with a muncie 4 speed and a full spool. I can handle power 300 were i live is the limit of the roads. On the back roads you will never use it all. But i do travel sometimes and north carolina is a blast to run in with a high horse power car. Thats why i would like reliablity i travel. I know how to handle most driving situations.

I love the power in my MkII i would just like a little more yes 300hp is alot for every day driving. The reason why i asked about N/A is the same reason you spoke of sarinas. Im not looking for "track use" im looking for every day fun and the enjoy ment out of a rare made rarer. Which is part of the reason why i want the engine setup i want. Alot of people have heard of the 7mgte more so then the 5mge and alot more then a 6M.

I want the pride in MY engine. I love my car and i want her to have an engine that would make her happy. My interior can wait for now i have half of it and my wife will make over the seats. This project is somthing i want to do to prove to some people that just because you dont have a SAE standard doesnt mean shit. I know of many "race built cars that spend most of there week being worked on for the weekend cruise.

She will spend time on the drag strip ( thats all thats around here) i would love to drive her there blow some minds and drive home and pass there trailers.

Now my question is if i build and bore a 6M .030 over. 440 7M injectors and a ct-26 running 10 pounds with a controller about were does that take me in the HP and TQ range. The only reason i ask is because i am not a "math person" im not good at it. If someone would mind throwing a bone i would be thankfull so that i have to rethink then i shall.
^^^^^^^^^^ Important ^^^^^^^ thank you ^^^^^^^^
Im not aginst a 7M but i have most every think with in reach to do a 6M. I have spare blocks and heads ( yes multible ) i have time and i will have budget shortly. I would like to work with in house for this build. My SDR will be the track queen.

[pimptrizkit]

i dont like playing with 12v's but i have made 325whp and 324ftlbs @ 12psi on my 7mgte on stock turbo and fuel injectors, i did have a maft pro , lc-1 and walbro.and rrfpRegulator.

i managed 375 out of stock injectors on stock fuel injectors. with a 57trim upgrade and maft pro and walbr0. and rrfpRegulator.

driving a turbo car is a bit weird to lean while laying down the power but when you get used to it , it's way better. the power come's on hard and spins the trie's or nails you to your seat.

a stock 7mte swap compaird to a 6m swap or boosted 5m swap,

6m 165-180whp,
5m turbo 155-200
7mgte 230-280whp

[DRIFTINGmy85]

Does anyone have a 'pc' dyno? A program that you input the specifications of the engine and the program determines how much HP should be made?
Maybe that might help?

[mavrick666999]

Thank Pimptrizkit thats a little more of an answer i was looking for. I have a truck thats supercharged i know how to anticipate lag and yes they do have lag. I have driven a couple of tuend eclipse with huge lag you dont get power till 2500 RPM's then your ass is in the backseats.


So close to 300 to the ground is do able on this set up as long as im in the ball park thats fine i dont need to eat vettes and shit out vipers if you get the metaphor.

Im not looking for the fasted supra around ( donkey will have me beat ) i just want somthing to have fun with + around here im already in the middle of the food chain in accleration. And at the top for handling.

On to the other topic how hard is the 1jz Vs a 7mgte swap. I know i could do a 7M swap with little difficulty on a scale of 1 thru 10. One being regular maintenince on a moter Ie changing oil and timing belts.
Ten being droping the motor and replacing it with a NASA rocket for an every day driver were would you rate the 1jz?

I know chris search search search i will be doing that after i post this

Thanks once again

[Norbie]

I have driven a couple of tuend eclipse with huge lag you dont get power till 2500 RPM's then your ass is in the backseats.
LOL

That's huge.

[lacrssgus14]

LOL

That's huge.

Yeah dude, huge lag is 35 psi hitting at 5700 RPM. Thats huge lag.

[Junkie]

LOL

That's huge.


Yeah dude, huge lag is 35 psi hitting at 5700 RPM. Thats huge lag.


No shit. I'm freaking thrilled with full boost at anything under 4k rpms, even on a low boost "17psi" application.

Small/Medium turbo's FTW ...

[mavrick666999]

Ok let me refrase this it seemed it took for ever for the lag to kick in from a stop light. I understand that larger applictaions can be higher but instead of a few seconds it seemed like all day i couldnt tell you all the specs of the engine its been to long.

[BillyM]

If you're looking for ~300rwhp turbo'd, you don't really need to be concerned with lag... The ct26 is an on-off switch...

James, you show me a 155rwhp 5m'd turbo, and I'll show you someone who's DOING IT WRONG I don't know that I've seen a 5mgte setup dyno UNDER 190rwhp with stock 7m IC, elbow, downpipe, etc... It looks like you're trying hard to push a 6mNA..

--BillyM

[mavrick666999]

well thats all good Thanks Billy. Im glad to see my hopes are reachable now time to start building

[pimptrizkit]

actualy billy it was off the top of my head thing... if i was to push any engine swap it would be a 7mgte swap, didn't matter weather you chose r154 or w58. just a blast to drive

i've seen a 5m dyno at 145whp, but it was n/a so i can see why you brought it up..

i know with proper fuel you can squeeze an extra 50-100hp out of almost any engine.

,but i do recall bradmk2drifter doing it Wrong... so any thing is possible right?

[pituala]

Now with mounts available, really the only custom part is the driveshaft as far as putting a 1J in a MKII. The wiring isn't that hard. With just a downpipe, intake, and a FCD I was making 300rwhp. There was insta boost except in 5th gear....and even that was extremely minor lag. I never had to downshift while on the highway. The twins are almost always in power!!! The car was extremely fun to drive like that. It ran 12.6's all day long on the stock 14" wheels like that.

[mavrick666999]

I have looked up a little me info on the 1JZGTE conversion That might be on my SDR for late next year Thats going to be my track car. It seems like a semi easy swap comparied to a 2jz. Thanks Every one for your input and knowledge i will hand the brain picker to someone else now. Thanks once again.

[BillyM]

I have looked up a little me info on the 1JZGTE... It seems like a semi easy swap comparied to a 2jz.

I think you need to look up a little more info.

--billyM

[mavrick666999]

Im not saying it 30 to 40 times easier im just saying easier every thing i have looked up has the 2jz as one of the hardest swaps. at least in my opinion the task of dual fuel pumps and so on and so forth. Just my two cents and im prolly wrong i haven't done either so in the end i really dont know.

[BillyM]

Identical intake and exhaust needs, identical wiring mess, identical motormount points, identical transmission mounting requirements, etc... Infact, I don't see where ANYTHING is easier on the 1jz than the 2jz aside from the initial investment.

Nowhere does it say you need to install 2 fuel pumps for a 2jz and 1 fuel pump for a 1jz...

This is what we call misinformation, and it's important not to spread it.

--billyM

[Norbie]

Agree with the above, the effort required for a 1JZ swap is pretty much the same as a 2JZ swap. The only difference is cost.

[935motorsports]

Let's back track a little bit?

How much money do you HAVE? That will help us tell you what the best bang for the buck is.

I can get you a bolt in 1JZ motorset w/ brackets (no electronics) for $1000 before shipping. Figure another $1000 in electronics and another $1000 in nick nacks (intercooler, piping, fuel pump, etc) associated with any turbo swap. So, at least 3k plus shipping. Will make at least 260-280rwhp with full 3" exhaust out of the box. Peaks out at 320ish on stock turbos.

If you go 7MGTE, the costs will be about the same. Figure 200-220rwhpish at stock boost with full exhaust. Goes up to 300rwhp with lots of mods on stock turbo. However, finding one ready to use is always hard.

A nicely built 6m should run you around $2000 with mild fuel upgrades. Maybe 160-180rwhp if you are lucky, but reliable, responsive and fun to drive.

[mavrick666999]

budget is as i go. Im taking my time im going with a 6m bored 30 over running mostly 7m parts, Injectors , crank , rods. a ct26 7M turbo. i think this is more in my skill range as i can see it. I think this is also more in my foreseeable budget im fine with 2 to 2.5 k for a budget on my engine. Now onto my tranny and rear end.