Wheels for a MKII...how about 5-bolt hubs?

[Damian]

I realize this may be a whacked idea but after reading through the many posts debating wheels and what size would be best for a group buy etc., etc....how about custom 5-bolt hubs? Then the choices of wheels would become massive and anyone who bought in could choose what size wheels they wanted!

Maybe the production of such hubs would be much more expensive than wheels? I have no knowledge in that area but it would seem to be an alternative to trying to find (increasingly rare) appropriate 4-bolt wheels.

Just a thought (flame suit on)

[moonpie33]

actually i dont think it would work. im not a hub expert but wouldnt it just be easier to get a spacer to convert over??

[83restomod]

please use search before posting. this is one of those on going issues that almost everyone has talked about. moonpie, have u run spacers on a mke? if so please post wheels, type of spacer, hub or lug centric, and what issues you have had. real world experience goes a long way.

custom hubs---- your looking at 200+ a hub (and thats cheap) or search for the 5 bolt hub swaps that other members have done.
custom wheels--- 2-3k range (new)
gay sportmax and alike--400ish + tires
or find used wheels (aka Rapp's B45 simmons)


end thread.

[silverton]

I got used compomotive cx600's for 550 shipped. I like 'em :)

[Dangerous Ken]

how about custom 5-bolt hubs?
...
Maybe the production of such hubs would be much more expensive than wheels? I have no knowledge in that area but it would seem to be an alternative to trying to find (increasingly rare) appropriate 4-bolt wheels.

It's the 'RWD Offset' (Rear Hubs / Wide Rear Wheels) that are hard to find.
There are many wheels 8" wide that fit the fronts but you have to go custom to fit the 10" wide wheel in the rear.

So getting custom 5 bolt rear hubs would be a good compromise as the only option now is the long discontinued MS123 rear hubs that never made it to North America.



custom wheels--- 2-3k range (new)
gay sportmax and alike--400ish + tires
or find used wheels (aka Rapp's B45 simmons)

end thread.

I wouldn't be so quick to end this thread.

There's a bunch of higher offset (+20 - +42) 'FWD' wheels that could be made to work with just adapters.
Adapters generally cost $200-$300 for a set of four, and also there are 4 bolt to 5 bolt adapters already available.

You do lose an inch of lip using the 'FWD' wheels, but there are plenty of 5 bolt 'FWD' offset wheels available (using adapters) for 1/2 the cost of a pair of custom rear hubs.

If you 'want it all', you would most likely spend $500 for a pair of custom 5 bolt rear hubs and then spend the grand for a pair of 10" wide wheels from a MkIV, for example, and you are right back at the cost of a set of 4 custom wheels for a 4 bolt MkII...

Oh, if the Sportmax wheels are Gay, then what does that make the Banana wheels - Lesbian? :zzzzz:

Ken

[rsdeo]

I realize this may be a whacked idea but after reading through the many posts debating wheels and what size would be best for a group buy etc., etc....how about custom 5-bolt hubs? Then the choices of wheels would become massive and anyone who bought in could choose what size wheels they wanted!

Maybe the production of such hubs would be much more expensive than wheels? I have no knowledge in that area but it would seem to be an alternative to trying to find (increasingly rare) appropriate 4-bolt wheels.

Just a thought (flame suit on)

It all depends how much one wants to spend. With all these 4 bolt wheels out there selling relatively cheap that fit a MK2, 5 bolt conversions look a little more expensive and parts are hard to source.

There are a few wheels that are 5 bolt common in Canada and the USA that have good offsets. Some would suite a MK2 and others won't.

Crown Victoria mesh style. 16x7 +6 offset 5x114.3.
Jeep. Various styles all 5x114.3.
Starion. 16x7 +18, 16x8 +18, 16x8 -10 and 16x9 +0 all 5x114.3. By far the best choice as they look similar to the stock MK2 wheel.

See post link (http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=7337&highlight=bolt).

Custom front hubs, or sort of.

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/8927/hub5x11432cu.jpg

See post link (http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=19650&highlight=bolt).

5 bolt conversion, all you wanted to know. See this link (http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=4403).


...Oh, if the Sportmax wheels are Gay, then what does that make the Banana wheels - Lesbian? :zzzzz:

Ken

That is funny Ken!

[turbogoo1]

Or you could get them welded and then drilled out and made 5 bolt like the 4wd drive guys sometimes do. I have heard of it working, but I dont think anyone here has done it.

If Im wrong then I will admit it, but it could be a viable option.

Rotors could be an issue though...

[woggin]

Or you could get them welded and then drilled out and made 5 bolt like the 4wd drive guys sometimes do. I have heard of it working, but I dont think anyone here has done it.

If Im wrong then I will admit it, but it could be a viable option.

Rotors could be an issue though...

that doesnt work because of the internal handbrake! i asked about that on toymods.

People in australia use ms123 hub with r33 rotors and calipers! thats the norm, as the skyline stuff is better than the toyota stuff, there is little use going to 5-stud and not putting on better stoppers!!

[moonpie33]

Resto just a idea. I remember shawn telling me they werent worth getting because you can lose a wheel on a launch?????
just what i have heard though.

[love2smoketires]

I know this is a broken record. in terms of 5lugs. but have anybody looked into the z31 rear suspension. I used to own a 85 & the rear suspension is very similar to the mkii, & they come in 5 lug same suspension 84-89 z31. Im bin looking for a cheap doner to try it out. or go to a you pull juck yard to check it out & take some mesurements, but is been to friking cold. up here in Jersey.

[83restomod]

i posted "end thread" becasue each one of his questions has been answered on here more then once. if you break it down u have only a few options. not sure what banana wheels are but yes, sportmaxx wheels are cheaply made and IMO not worthy of most cars. spacers can casue other issuses that can be avoided simply by looking into quality, correct fitting wheels.

[williamb82]

i know a guy that is going to take a look at making custom rear 5 lug hubs later. he is working on other things at the moment. idk if itll be viable as the rear hub is a axle stub. but then again he knows shops that can do it as he has already made them for other cars as i recall.

[denvermk2]

Do you have proof that sport max is crap other than the price? Is there a link somewhere? I am sorry, I just hate it when someone judge something based on the price with no proof.

Sportmax was the best $400 ive ever spent. If I ever damage one wheel, ebay sell them individually for $120 shipped. We all know how hard it is to replace only one wheel. Fixing it is not cheap either. I rather have sportmax (not proven its crap) rather than stock wheels with truck rated tires. Shame on you.

[Tire Shredder]

Even with the 5 bolt swap you still don't have a large selection of wheels. At least, very attractive ones. The 5 bolt hub swap (from crowns etc.) are very hard to find and pretty expensive. We have a unique offset for our car. staggered with zero offset and can even take some negative in the rear. If you want Perfect fitment there really isn't anything out there. IMO, if you want something "just right" you're still looking at custom wheels which makes it a less attractive upgrade.

[rsdeo]

Even with the 5 bolt swap you still don't have a large selection of wheels. At least, very attractive ones. The 5 bolt hub swap (from crowns etc.) are very hard to find and pretty expensive. We have a unique offset for our car. staggered with zero offset and can even take some negative in the rear. If you want Perfect fitment there really isn't anything out there. IMO, if you want something "just right" you're still looking at custom wheels which makes it a less attractive upgrade.


It is hard to beat the price of the Sportmax wheels. Still a little more and you can get something decent in 5 bolt. You also get a nice front brake upgrade which is reasonably priced. It's just that initial investment for the 5 bolt parts.

Starion rims come in perfect widths and offsets. With four size/offset wheels available. The bonus being they are the closest wheel design to stock you can get in a larger diameter than stock.

16x7 +18, 16x8 +18, 16x8 -10 and 16x9 +0. With the accompanying brake upgrade to the front for the 5 bolt swap using Z31 parts the 16x7 +18 will fit like a 16x7 +10 and the 16x8 +18 will fit like a 16x8 +10.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/342/compare16iu.jpg

If ever I build a ma6x wanting it to look stock, but give it upgrades it should have gotten from the factory the 5 bolt swap with Starions would be highly on the list. As well as a 7MGTE. I have everything here. All I need is a garage to complete it in and a clean rust free rolling shell with a nice interior.

[SolidStateS15]

Do you have proof that sport max is crap other than the price? Is there a link somewhere? I am sorry, I just hate it when someone judge something based on the price with no proof.

Sportmax was the best $400 ive ever spent. If I ever damage one wheel, ebay sell them individually for $120 shipped. We all know how hard it is to replace only one wheel. Fixing it is not cheap either. I rather have sportmax (not proven its crap) rather than stock wheels with truck rated tires. Shame on you.


for the average person they are fine. they are the same as any cast alum wheel, it doesn't matter what the price is. they are all made basically the same way. they are good for everyday to spirited driving, but can't always be trusted for serious track use. if you have a lot of power pushing your car, or do any kind of track racing then you should spend the extra on forged rims.

they aren't crap, just not up to the duty of high intensity driving which most ppl won't ever see. under normal circumstances they work just fine. if you get into an accident, or hit something like a pothole they can easily crack apart or become dangerous if not noticed right away and come apart later.

[rsdeo]

A member on this forum with his work in progress.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/mz3ontherock/Supra/Photoshoot%20-%20October%2027-07/Photoshoot-October27-07002.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/mz3ontherock/Supra/Photoshoot%20-%20October%2027-07/Photoshoot-October27-07004.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/mz3ontherock/Supra/Photoshoot%20-%20October%2027-07/Photoshoot-October27-07005.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/mz3ontherock/Supra/Photoshoot%20-%20October%2027-07/Photoshoot-October27-07007.jpg

[83restomod]

for the average person they are fine. they are the same as any cast alum wheel, it doesn't matter what the price is. they are all made basically the same way. they are good for everyday to spirited driving, but can't always be trusted for serious track use. if you have a lot of power pushing your car, or do any kind of track racing then you should spend the extra on forged rims.

they aren't crap, just not up to the duty of high intensity driving which most ppl won't ever see. under normal circumstances they work just fine. if you get into an accident, or hit something like a pothole they can easily crack apart or become dangerous if not noticed right away and come apart later.


+1. normal everyday= fine

anything above that and i wont trust all the work and $$ on a cheap set of wheels. if you think im just talking smack, look at all the really nice restored cars, is eaither referb stock or not sportmaxx.

sportmaxx wheels dont make magizine cars, just the adds do.

[rsdeo]

+1. normal everyday= fine

anything above that and i wont trust all the work and $$ on a cheap set of wheels. if you think im just talking smack, look at all the really nice restored cars, is eaither referb stock or not sportmaxx.

sportmaxx wheels dont make magizine cars, just the adds do.

Just because something is reasonably priced doesn't mean it's not any good.

The real answer to Sportmax wheels question is in fact another question. Has anybody tested these wheels at the limit?

We should all stop making conclusions.

[83restomod]

if they were as good or close to the higher end wheel companies then more ppl would have them on higher end cars. but there not.

i agree we have no data from exparamental testing.

[denvermk2]

Yes.. im testing it driving through nasty suburb neighborhoods and roundabouts lol. It holds up ok so far :). Once in a while, speed bumps :D

[83restomod]

were talking about track testing both autox/road racing, and drags. along with putting down double and even tripple what a 5m/6m does.

[denvermk2]

gosh man.. i was joking. I am no dummy.

[kmfdmk]

That's it I'm going to get a pair of Sportmax's just to test them and see/show they're not junk. I think some of you are being snobbish & uppity. A rim is a fucking rim. Now the differences are between steel, aluminum, magnesium, forged, spun or not, and how many pieces they come in. I'm tempted to prove all you crazy people that say spacers are horrible wrong and get a set that require spacers to PROVE that if you use quailty hardware (ARP studs & good nuts), MAINTAIN the VEHICLE and beat the shit out of it that it WILL BE FINE.

Now... can someone explain again to me why welding shut the holes in the hubs where the studs go and re-drilling it for 5 lug would mess up the rear e-brake system (which I don't use anyways)??

K Thanks

[Junkie]

That's it I'm going to get a pair of Sportmax's just to test them and see/show they're not junk. I think some of you are being snobbish & uppity. A rim is a fucking rim. Now the differences are between steel, aluminum, magnesium, forged, spun or not, and how many pieces they come in. I'm tempted to prove all you crazy people that say spacers are horrible wrong and get a set that require spacers to PROVE that if you use quailty hardware (ARP studs & good nuts), MAINTAIN the VEHICLE and beat the shit out of it that it WILL BE FINE.

Now... can someone explain again to me why welding shut the holes in the hubs where the studs go and re-drilling it for 5 lug would mess up the rear e-brake system (which I don't use anyways)??

K Thanks


I love to read wheels threads ..... Opinions are like ........... Oh wait, I resemble that remark ;)

Welding and redrilling is just a matter of getting a rotor Rusty. I'd probably just redrill the stockers, shouldn't be a need to weld the rotors.

[Tire Shredder]

if they were as good or close to the higher end wheel companies then more ppl would have them on higher end cars. but there not.

i agree we have no data from exparamental testing.

often high end wheels are "high end" because their prices are high end. with finer manufacturing processes to justify it....and they get a larger profit margin to go with it too. expensive wheels look nicer and are technically better but this in no way says a particular cheap wheel is dangerous or crappy.

Some are dangerous, like the rota slipstreams for example...they tend to break when driven hard.

I'm just not a huge fan of multi-lug wheels. It just reminds me they are inexpensive. To many, part of the appeal of aftermarket wheels is that they are tailored to the car...they suite the style and size the car asks for. sometimes though they look like they were stolen from another car ;)

for the record, I've never heard of a sportmax failure.



Now... can someone explain again to me why welding shut the holes in the hubs where the studs go and re-drilling it for 5 lug would mess up the rear e-brake system (which I don't use anyways)??

K Thanks

it won't, but that's what you wanted to hear. :sarcasm:

Raj, Grant's widowmaker is a stellar looking car. As far as I know, he is still on the lookout for some front hubs. Starion wheels are awesome...but the super nice performance package starion wheels aren't that easy to find either....nor cheap.

[kmfdmk]

No offense meant towards you Junkie or anyone else. With the proper preparation and maintenance you can make a car that's held together with duct tape work (24 hours of Lemons :D)

And Steve you're right that IS what I wanted to hear *grins* I was rather confused by post number 8... (http://forums.celicasupra.com/showpost.php?p=527505&postcount=8)

And for some rims that required spacers I WAS down to the Sportmax/XXR 006's. Though I'm running into a bit of confusion on availability of 17x9 in a 4 bolt. But that's neither here nor there. I just might pursue the re-drilling of some hubs. WOOT!!!

PS.

Offhand anyone know if blank, undrilled hubs are made?

For myself I would consider it pushing the margins of race-reliable with a 4-bolt, re-drilled to 5-bolt, with spacers... Too many extra holes w/ additional torque-fles on the entire hub.

PPS. Please forgive me I get excitable. I like an open forum of discussion where even bat-shit crazy ideas are encouraged, not discouraged.

As for the main topic. I would be down to buy a REAR set of custom hubs (in 5-bolt) (if I don't just re-drill mine first).

[rsdeo]

Okay here we go.


....Now... can someone explain again to me why welding shut the holes in the hubs where the studs go and re-drilling it for 5 lug would mess up the rear e-brake system (which I don't use anyways)??

K Thanks

The ma6x does not have have hubs on the rear as on the front. Instead it has stub axles.

If you look at these stub axles once the discs are removed you will see the flange that holds the studs is not round, but a weird shape. If I remember correctly you will need to make the flange round and then drill holes into it.

Drilling holes into welds is almost impossible. The weld is stronger than the steel and will break the drill bit.

So this will probably not work.


...Welding and redrilling is just a matter of getting a rotor Rusty. I'd probably just redrill the stockers, shouldn't be a need to weld the rotors.

Yes Junkie is correct.

All you do is drill four new holes on the stock disc. No need to fill in the left over three holes. Yes, one hole is shared between both bolt patterns.


often high end wheels are "high end" because their prices are high end. with finer manufacturing processes to justify it....and they get a larger profit margin to go with it too. expensive wheels look nicer and are technically better but this in no way says a particular cheap wheel is dangerous or crappy.

Some are dangerous, like the rota slipstreams for example...they tend to break when driven hard.

I'm just not a huge fan of multi-lug wheels. It just reminds me they are inexpensive. To many, part of the appeal of aftermarket wheels is that they are tailored to the car...they suite the style and size the car asks for. sometimes though they look like they were stolen from another car ;)

for the record, I've never heard of a sportmax failure.


it won't, but that's what you wanted to hear. :sarcasm:

High end wheels are made lighter and have better machining.

Low end wheels are heavier and have less machining detail.

You give up one for the other. Not until testing will we ever know which wheel is strong, etc.


Raj, Grant's widowmaker is a stellar looking car. As far as I know, he is still on the lookout for some front hubs. Starion wheels are awesome...but the super nice performance package starion wheels aren't that easy to find either....nor cheap.

So is your car Steve.

Grant is looking for the rare MS65 front hubs and doesn't want to go with the Z31 or Starion hubs. He wants to use the JK BBK which should work fine with the MS65 hubs.

Yes the Starion SHP package wheels, 16x8 +18 and 16x9 +0, are harder to find and more money. Still the standard, 16x7 +18 and 16x8 -10, are still a nice upgrade from the stock MK2 rims and will fill out the front and rear fine.


'...PS.

Offhand anyone know if blank, undrilled hubs are made?

For myself I would consider it pushing the margins of race-reliable with a 4-bolt, re-drilled to 5-bolt, with spacers... Too many extra holes w/ additional torque-fles on the entire hub.

PPS. Please forgive me I get excitable. I like an open forum of discussion where even bat-shit crazy ideas are encouraged, not discouraged.

As for the main topic. I would be down to buy a REAR set of custom hubs (in 5-bolt) (if I don't just re-drill mine first).

Join Toymods. They are on sale sometimes there.

[kmfdmk]

Okay here we go.



The ma6x does not have have hubs on the rear as on the front. Instead it has stub axles.

If you look at these stub axles once the discs are removed you will see the flange that holds the studs is not round, but a weird shape. If I remember correctly you will need to make the flange round and then drill holes into it.


Join Toymods. They are on sale sometimes there.

I knew something was bugging me about what I had said. I had this unnerving idea that I had put my foot in my mouth (not that I ever do that). And I had a mind to look up the MKII TSRM or TOYODIY and look @ the exploded parts view of the rear end to get it straight.

Well crap. Looks like a machine shop would be required to turn off the old 4 lug flange, and weld on a new round flange... That looks somewhat economically UN-feasable.

Thanks for the tip on Toymods, and all the excellent and well seasoned insight!! :thumbsup

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/RA/RA_005.gif

[rsdeo]

I knew something was bugging me about what I had said. I had this unnerving idea that I had put my foot in my mouth (not that I ever do that). And I had a mind to look up the MKII TSRM or TOYODIY and look @ the exploded parts view of the rear end to get it straight.

Well crap. Looks like a machine shop would be required to turn off the old 4 lug flange, and weld on a new round flange... That looks somewhat economically UN-feasable.

Thanks for the tip on Toymods, and all the excellent and well seasoned insight!! :thumbsup

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/RA/RA_005.gif

It's an honest mistake. For some strange reason Toyota seems to do these crazy little designs. Other manufacturers just use a round flange.

[SilverMk2]

Frankly it would be be a fairly easy job to machine off the existing flange, build a new replacment flange with 5 bolts, and have it EB welded on.

As far as wheels go they all break at some point. I've seen photos of just about any kind of wheel broken over the year from stock wheels to HRE. If you track your car regularly you're supposed to inspect them regularly.

[kmfdmk]

Frankly it would be be a fairly easy job to machine off the existing flange, build a new replacment flange with 5 bolts, and have it EB welded on.

As far as wheels go they all break at some point. I've seen photos of just about any kind of wheel broken over the year from stock wheels to HRE. If you track your car regularly you're supposed to inspect them regularly.

Hmm I'll have to look into this. Any suggestions on where to find EB welders (the service not the machine) !?!? Oh wow... after reading up on EB welding... THAT looks expensive, and machining looks cheap!!

[SilverMk2]

I think this is the place we used in the past;

http://www.hi-techwelding.com/

Its typically not cheap. We routinely use it to weld gears onto shafts to avoid custom forgings or hogging it out of a monster forged bar on smaller production jobs.

[rsdeo]

Frankly it would be be a fairly easy job to machine off the existing flange, build a new replacment flange with 5 bolts, and have it EB welded on.

As far as wheels go they all break at some point. I've seen photos of just about any kind of wheel broken over the year from stock wheels to HRE. If you track your car regularly you're supposed to inspect them regularly.


I think this is the place we used in the past;

http://www.hi-techwelding.com/

Its typically not cheap. We routinely use it to weld gears onto shafts to avoid custom forgings or hogging it out of a monster forged bar on smaller production jobs.

Cool!

[williamb82]

why has no one mentioned this OLD thread?

http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=26443&highlight=weld+drilled

if you want 5 lug rear hubs there you go. $300/pair with core.

[rsdeo]

why has no one mentioned this OLD thread?

http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=26443&highlight=weld+drilled

if you want 5 lug rear hubs there you go. $300/pair with core.


Interesting pic. I need to see the face of the stub. Looks like he welded material to one side of the stub. If it fails at least three studs are still good.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5044/keep024ly5.jpg

I find it interesting that some members on this forum are worried about the strength of certain brand wheels, but welding stub axles is considered acceptable.

We could also try this axle.

http://forums.celicasupra.com/showthread.php?t=4403&page=32