A guide to installing front speakers in stock location

[NiGHTS]

Greetings

The time has come for me to replace the OEM front speakers.

I know a lot of you have replaced these speakers with numerous new aftermarket speakers, but I need to know how it's done.

After examining the stock one, it appears to be around 2.5" to 3" in diameter...(this is an '83 Supra I have...not sure if '84+ Supra's had a larger speaker/location) but I know some of you have put 3.5" to 4" speakers in there...how did you achieve this?

I was thinking about these speakers...will they fit?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/CarProducts/CarProductDetails/0,1429,21391,00.html

If someone can post a step by step guide on what to do and what is needed to be done to upgrade to 3.5" or these 4" ones, I would greatly appreciate it...

Thanx heaps. :)

[dohc82]

Hi I have the 4 inch speakers in the front. When I bought the car someone had replaced the stocks with aftermarkets so when I swapped mine the opening had been enlarged (for sound purposes). It had been cut slightly larger. It is metal under the padding so cutting must be tough. The stock speaker cover still fit properly so the amount removed must be small...the mesh and plastic and the frame that holds it all I guess. I didnt even know it was supposed to have a screen behind the cover untill I went to the wreckers :!: The 4 inch speaker fit in place of the old ones nicely...they were 3.5 inch. I had to bend one of the mounting tabs up for clearance. and attached them whereever possible. Unfortunately the cheapo speakers I put in have already developed a problem so I will have to do it again. :x
As for those pioneers...they will fit with some work-they look like the same size as mine. Have you bought them yet? Cause there is a pair on Ebay for under 10.00 dollars US :shock: (as of this posting with 2 days to go). Thought you might like to know :)

-Wil

[NiGHTS]

Hi :)

I'm not sure if I fully understand...do you need to cut from where the speaker is mounted or, cut the entire inside up to where the front grill/guard is. Because the speaker sits a bit far back in there...I have only taken off the front grill to see how much room (diameter) there is...but there only appears to be around 3" worth...so I'm not sure what its like behind the actual speaker...don't suppose you could take a pic, or someone else can so I can sorta get an idea...

I haven't bought the pioneers yet because I want to make sure they will fit first... :)

[dohc82]

Actually the speaker grill/guard is what gets cut out. The square opening has been slightly enlarged. I think that just removing the plastic speaker cover/grill and the frame holding it makes for a 3 inch square hole. the diagonal(corner to corner) is closer to 4 inches so A 4 inch speaker will overlap a little but most of the speaker will be clear.
I dont have any pictures developed but when I do I will post.
I would take the pictures in today but we had a spring snow storm today. The snow is 1.5 feet and increasing :shock: so I wont be moving the car today.
-Wil

[NiGHTS]

Ohhhh! I think I understand now...basically you use the un-used space...i.e the space that's in front of the OEM speaker, since it's sitting maybe 2 inchs back...and where it sits it's about 3" but where the grill/guard is it opens up to around 4"...I see...so that means you don't use the grill/guard, you use the one that comes with the new speakers...right?

I would really like to see how this looks...and how much of the inside was cut out...I don't suppose you could unscrew one of your speakers and take a photo of the inside? if not, that's ok... :)

BTW, since the OEM location is a rectangular shape and the speakers are a circle shape, is there any gaps...or are the gaps covered by the speaker?

[dohc82]

Boy this is hard to describe :? . The speakers are using the stock covers. The speakers are mounted from the inside. When you take the dash apart you will see that the stock speakers are in a plastic housing. This is too small for the 4 inch speakers. This housing unscrews. There is also a soft mesh screen between the speaker and the stock speaker cover. This was removed by a previous owner.
After all this is removed you have a square opening. The edge on mine was trimmed (poorly) :x and is now about a half inch wider each way (lenght/width). The 4 inch speaker fits from the back and fills from corner to corner but does overlap slightly on the sides (round over square). On mine it is just a bit of the foam surround and a sliver of cone so doesnt seem to affect things. I was able to line up 2 of the 4 mounting holes and so it has only 2 screws holding it but it seems to be OK. If you could enclose the speakers you would get much better projection. I tried but the bolts on the end of the dash got in the way :( . I am thinking of a solution so when I fix the buzzing speaker I can put something in. When the pics are developed I will try to post but havent had much luck posting here. I will probably post them at egroups.
I hope this is more clear :wink: .
-Wil

[Henge]

I have them same pioneer 4" speakers in my fronts 8) I took the plastic factory mounts out, and built custom ones out of wood. Just pretty much a 1/4inch lift to the speaker doesn't touch. I cut come cardboard and shaped it around the rear of the speaker for a box, stuffed the box with pillow filling...for better sound...and taped the cardboard up with duct tape :lol: they sound nice just how they are. But I would like more sound, like a 5 1/4" or maybe a 6 1/2" speaker...I don't want to cut into the door...so I'm thinking about making little speaker boxes to fit in the cornors on the floor pointing diagonaly up and then covering them up with carpet to look neat. I just got to figure out a way to do it on the driver side, because I don't want it getting in the way of my clutch pedal or me stepping on it all of the time on mistake 8)

[Henge]

The front speakers should be 3 1/2" by the way. Another option...on my second supra, I bought 1" tweeters, got a small piece of metal...measured it to the stock plastic mouts, drilled holes for the mounts, then sodered the little piece of metal to the tweeter, and mounted...they don't give much mids....but plenty of highs 8)

[SupraFiend]

I made fiber glass mounts to fit 4s, it sounds excellent. I personally think a really good 4 that is pointed right at your head will sound much better then a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2 in the bottom of the door, and I refuse to butcher my mint door panels. Heres pics...

http://www.pbase.com/suprafiend/fiberglass_speaker_mounts

[NiGHTS]

Ahh ok...I think I understand now...basically you remove the inside plastic part where the old speaker is attached to and either create your own custom inside or somehow attach the new speaker up close to the front grill...right?

Creating a custom fiberglass inside might be the best idea because you can mould it to fit the circle shape speaker...the only thing is, how much depth does the inside allow from the grill? Because 4" speakers are much larger than the tiny stock ones, will there be enough room depth wise...or will it hit something back there?

[dohc82]

Yes you've got it :D And there is a lot of room back there.
-Wil

[Henge]

suprafiend, I don't mean in the door panels...If I knew how to post pics, I'd show you what I mean :silly: but I'll try to explain it...
on the floor, in the cornor nearest to the door, towards the front of the car
I'd make a box to mount there like a triangle piece in the cornor pointing up diagonally. would this get in the way of ur clutch pedal on the driver side? Also I was thinking, the bottom most panel on the dash....would it be posible to mount speakers hidden there? I'm thinking it'll be too much weight on the panel and on the driver side, it'd get in the way of ur pedals. Anyone do this before?

[dohc82]

The stock sub woofer is in there under the passenger side so ther is plenty of room on that side...drivers is a little more tight but if your talking about 3-4 inch speakers they should go.
-Wil
been in there three times in the last two weeks :x

-Wil

[dogstar]

my suggestions are to make some kick panels from fiberglass
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~wradford/doorpods.htm
like this, you dont have to butcher your doors to do it, just make a little sheetmetal tab in an L shape, that will go under the door panel and attach using the clips/pins, then you bolt it to the bottom of the fiberglass pods.

ill try and draw up something in paint if i didnt explain it clearly enough.

as far as speakers in the dash, its almost too much of a pain in the ass to disassemble the whole dash just for some piddly little 4" speakers, id sooner make up some kick panels.
as far as the arguement about whether or not they sound better on the floor.... well, their must be a reason so many competition stereos have kickpanel speakers... nuff said about that.

if you want some bass up front, find yourself a 6" subwoofer and a nice compact amp, and jam it under the dashboard where the factory sub normally is, itll fit with some finessing.
myself... im going to try and make a fiberglass under dash, to hold a 10" woofer, but i havent really spent much time working on it yet, ill take pics if i do end up making one.

[skip]

wasn't there someone working on some speaker pods for the doors :?: any developments :?:

[dohc82]

as far as speakers in the dash, its almost too much of a pain in the ass to disassemble the whole dash just for some piddly little 4" speakers,.

Done it 4 times now...piece of cake-by the way anyone know where all the extra screws came from :oops:

-Wil :lol:

[SupraFiend]

as far as speakers in the dash, its almost too much of a pain in the ass to disassemble the whole dash just for some piddly little 4" speakers, id sooner make up some kick panels.
as far as the arguement about whether or not they sound better on the floor.... well, their must be a reason so many competition stereos have kickpanel speakers... nuff said about that.


I'm sure you can get much nicer, louder speakers if you put them in the doors, but I've heard lots of in door speakers and they don't impress me that much. The best spot is in the doors above the arm rest. Take a look at where the speakers in a mk4 supra are located if you want to see the ultimate spot. Also notice that the speakers face the passenger directly, just like the front ones do in our cars. You don't have to take much of the dash apart to put 4s in, it goes pretty quick and easy. It is a bit of a pain to make the fiberglass mounts but at least you don't have to cut anything up.

As for bass up front, just get a nice sub system in the rear. Bass carries nicely, doesn't really matter where it comes from in the car, you'll feel it everywhere if your setup is good.

[dohc82]

Yes bass is non-directional. Home theater subs can be placed just about anywhere in the room.

-Wil

[Henge]

Actually bass is dirrectional 8) If you ever noticed when you face the sub pointing towards the rear of the car in the trunk...you get better bass! :P just my 2 cents!

[dogstar]

bass is directional and indirectional... i cant remember well enough to explain it, but i once had an acoustical engineer spend four hours telling me why. :)

if you want the best bass in a car, he suggested a small sub in the front, and a larger sub in the rear, both facing AWAY from the occupants.

i dont know if he was blowing smoke up my ass, but hes considerably more educated and experienced with sound and acoustical matters than i, so i just sat and listened.


fiberglass pods also provide better imaging, because it helps the speakers to be similar distances away from the driver.
dash corners would be good locations... if you sat in the center of the car.
kickpanels help imaging because (measure if you dont belive me) the speakers are more similar in distance from the drivers ears than the dash allows.

example: (all measurements are approximate, for a 1988 ranger)
dash speakers-
~drivers side speaker is 12 inches from the drivers ear
~passenger side speaker is 50 inches from the drivers ear

kickpanel speakers-
~drivers side speaker is 32 inches from the drivers ear
~passenger side speaker is 60 inches from the drivers ear


12 and 50 is a considerable difference, 38 inches of difference.
if you are using an IASCA imaging disc to tune your system, you will notice it, and so will passengers with a fine ear to music.
ive found it can also cause ear aches and headaches for myself... YMMV

32 and 58 inches... now thats a nicer match up, only 26 inches.
its still noticable, but you can always fade the drivers side a touch, or depending on your deck, some have time correction software integral.

this 12 inch difference in distances, belive it or not, sounds different.
for 95% of people, they could care less, and im sure some of you will be reading this and wondering WTH im bothering to post it, but i figure its a forum, if someone wants to read a post this long and mundane, they either want to learn what my theories are, or they want to discuss it. :)

either way, there it is
enjoy

[SupraFiend]

yes kick panels would be the best spot for our cars but I don't think they're that practical with the fuse box being down there. Plus I wouldn't want to give up any foot room on the drivers side. The stock front speaker locations are great for tweets if you can find a nice place for the mids. Your point is definatly valid about the distances, but either way your still not going to be in the center. I often tweak the balance to my side when no one else is in the car and get it centered perfectly. And I never said bass wasen't directional, I said it travels nicely. I've experimented with a couple different setups in Supras and having the sub in the rear facing the back of the car is definatly the best. Keep the sub centered too. I'm making a little box for a corolla gts coupe this weekend. I'm wondering if this setup will still work best for a car without a hatch. The sub is going to be in the trunk no matter what, I just need to decide which direction to point it. I'll experiment with my other box in there first I guess.

[dogstar]

for a non hatch, either point the box up through the rear deck (if there are no speakers, or its got ventilation holes)
or fire it into a corner, from a range of about 4-6 inches.

there maybe other positions that sound better, but these give you a decent place to start.

[Henge]

In a non-hatch car...for better sound make it airtight. make no ventilation holes. You'll get much more bass responce and it won't sound distorted because of the seat in the way. 8)

[SupraFiend]

make the box air tight you mean? This is a sealed box I'm testing with and and making for this car. Well got it runing this weekend. With a conventional trunk it definatly sounded best having the sub facing the front of the car. It sounds a little better with the rear seats folded down but it sounds much better then having the sub pointed at the back like it is in my supras. The really suprising thing was the box I custom made to fit perfectly between my rear shock towers tucked right up behind the rear seats in my supra fits perfectly in a corolla GTS coupe! The sub is just on the wrong side. That makes life easy for me, I can just use my plans for that box for the rolla and put the sub on the other side.

[dohc82]

Actually bass is dirrectional 8) If you ever noticed when you face the sub pointing towards the rear of the car in the trunk...you get better bass! :P just my 2 cents!

Because the back window is a huge reflector. Like a wall in your home. Add three more walls and you wont know where the sub is :)

-Wil

[Glaucus]

I have them same pioneer 4" speakers in my fronts 8) I took the plastic factory mounts out, and built custom ones out of wood. Just pretty much a 1/4inch lift to the speaker doesn't touch. I cut come cardboard and shaped it around the rear of the speaker for a box, stuffed the box with pillow filling...for better sound...and taped the cardboard up with duct tape
heh, sounds almost exactly as to what I did, except I used aluminum to make the frame. It sounds really good for what it is. I also used Brown Bread all over the place to help prevent any metal from vibrating (which can give you an un-wanted buzzing sound when listening to bass intensive songs).


:lol: they sound nice just how they are. But I would like more sound, like a 5 1/4" or maybe a 6 1/2" speaker...I don't want to cut into the door...so I'm thinking about making little speaker boxes to fit in the cornors on the floor pointing diagonaly up and then covering them up with carpet to look neat. I just got to figure out a way to do it on the driver side, because I don't want it getting in the way of my clutch pedal or me stepping on it all of the time on mistake 8)One idea might be to go with seperates. Go with a 2-way setup, stick the 6.5" woofers in the lower panels by your feet, pointing downwards and stick the tweeter in the stock location. If you did this with a non-seperate approach your tweets would also be pointing down and that would lead to sound bouncing around the car before hitting your ears and would sound muddy. This is generally not an issue with bass waves. You may have some issues with volume differences between the tweeter and woofer due to their significant distance from each other, but a good EQ should help fix that (or just boost the bass a bit).

Ideally the best place for your woofer would probably be in the door. The other place one could try would be on the side of the center console by your feet, with the woofer pointing towards the doors. The real issue here would be stereo imaging, but as long as the tweeters are in the stock location it should sound alright as the bass waves will bounce around the car anyway. Playing with the cross over points will make a big difference in any of these setups and you might want to find a speaker system with a lower ideal cross-over point (this is to make the woofers as directionless as possible). Hope that makes sense...

- Mike

[Henge]

Well I've been redoing my interior and playing around with sound until I get some funds up for my clutch and such...anywayz, I put a pair of tweaters in the front stock locations and it sounds good, I still need some more mid-bass upfront and not all the low bass coming from the rear, but I've been thinking of a million things I can do for that. The best thing I can come up with is cutting into the door. :? Having a component setup is the most ideal thing to do. Putting the 6" woffers in the door, and having tweeters in the stock front locations. It's the best sound you can make in the front of the car without getting in the way of the clutch peddal or the gas peddal or whatnot, and it should not be hard at all to make neat and to have support so it doesn't fall off when you slam the door and blah blah blah... what do you guys think? :?

[dogstar]

id go for it, if its what you want

theres no point in building your car for someone else, unless your planning on selling it.

[Henge]

Nah I'm doing this car all for my enjoyment. I never plan on selling it. I'm planing on taking it off the road in a few years, redoing everything possible I can do and make it an antique when it's ready. 8) Thats the only thing thats holding me back from doing it though. But I'm guessing since I'll be redoing the whole car for shows and whatnot, why not! :D

[Stefan]

Guys. it's easy. Just by a celica instead :)

http://www.speedtoys.com/~stefan/temp/speaker2.jpg

I made these for my previous coaxs, which were fantasyic, but one got stuffed so I bought some ex-demo splits.

Just gotta work out where to mount the tweets... high in the doors or low on the a-pillars seems the go, but driver's side tweet gets blocked by the steering column. To get around that, has to be on the doors just under the window, but then the tweets are further forward than the woofers, and they end up quite unequal distances from your ears. Stock dash locations would be good, angled up, but again the steering colum gets in the way.

[SupraFiend]

its not too bad in the stock locations for the tweets. What I want to try, is making some fiberglass tweet mounts that replace those stupid little plastic covers that go on the insides of the mirrors on the doors. Those things never stay down anyways, maybe I can kill two birds with one stone. Going to be tight though!

And theres no need to resort to buying a celica to get speakers in the doors :P Lots have made mounts to fit 6s in the doors, and if you really wanted to mount them like you have I'm sure it would be mostly a bolt on operation to convert our power windows to manual, but that would be a downgrade and power windows are not that much heavier then manual ones.

A friend put his mids in the bottoms of the door on his supra, and he cut the tweets into the panel on the top of the door just under the window. His system sounds excellent (might have something to do with the 2 10s and 1 15 in the rear too).

Glaucus, just correcting your terminolagy. When you say separates, what you mean is components, thats what their commonly called. And 2 ways are speakers with the mid and tweet built in together in one unit.

[Henge]

Thatd be a good idea to make the tweeter mounts and mirror covers all at once. I'd probally go for that, but then I'd have the stock front speaker locations empty and I'll put something in to fill the space and I'm tring to steer away from having a million speakers like all my other cars did :P I'm just going to put the mids in the doors and the tweeters in the stock locations and have a component setup that way. 8)

[SupraFiend]

I've had tweeters in the stock locations before, works pretty well and very easy to make brakets to install them. Hmmmm, you could fit a pretty big guage in the drivers side speaker spot if you had all of your speakers else where.

[Stefan]

Mirror position sounds a good idea. I bet if you had non-flush angle mounts for your tweeters (mine came with some too) you wouldn't need to fibreglass, just screw into the stock panel.

I can't do that because I have manual mirrors. I was testing out different tweet locations today and came up with an idea... use L-shaped brakets in the stock locations, horizontal top of the bracket gets screwed in with the stock screw at the top, and then mount tweet to the vertical part. Lets you angle them a bit this way too.

[Henge]

mmm gauge there...that would work good, but you gotta look down to see it lol... maybe a switch for some after market lights or a "go fast" button :wink: it'd make a good spot for one of them. 8)