Some Shock and Strut Thoughts

[Don L.]

Hey All:

I've been autoxing my MK2 for several years with the BMW E36 Koni Sports in the rear. Very good shock, but I've always missed the ability to adjust the shocks at the track. So after looking for something of comparable dimensions (the BMW shock is a bit long), I found that a rear shock for a Isuzu Trooper II '87-'91 4WD fits our cars. I mounted a pair of Rancho RX9000x 9 way adjustables today. They come with red urethane bushings for the top stem, the lower eyelet has urethane bushing with center hole that fits our lower shock mount perfectly. The ride is very good, I haven't tried autoxing yet, but hope to in next few weeks. I did notice that the compression of the Rancho is slightly softer than the Koni, but the rebound is adjustable to VERY firm. I got mine from Summit Racing. They have a buy 3 get 1 free on Ranchos. So I have 2 extra new units. Can sell for $130/pair shipped. Anyone interested let me know. BTW, Rancho part# is RS99179. 14" compressed, 22.3" extended.

My other thought was with all the potential of CNC machining of aluminum, we could make a spacer for the inside bottom of the strut housing, allowing us to run Tokico Illuminas in our cars from a 1st gen MR2 rear. I cut my strut housings to use the MR2 struts for a while, but without shortening the strut housing, it shouldn't cost too much for an approx 2" solid cylindrical spacer, with shape so it sits well in bottom of housing, and bottom of strut insert plants well. It should be a good fit to the inside diameter of the strut housing so no lateral movement. Any thoughts ? I know the travel will be less, but hey, get stiffer springs and set the struts firm :)

My brain drain for the day.

Don L.
(pm me if anyone interested in taking 2 Ranchos off me)

[jdk_ii]

Don L.

You rock! :-)

[williamb82]

don, they already make those spacers. go to club4ag.com. ill try to find the link and post it later. they will make the spacer whatever thickness you want. 20mm, 40mm, 50mm, etc... just let them know what thickness.
william

[williamb82]

http://ggtyler.com/t3_site_pages/products/strut_spacers.html

thats the link to the spacers. it says $24.95 but it doesnt say per pair or each. what thickness would we need for the aw11 rear shocks?
william

[Don L.]

Hey, if TTT makes those strut housing spacers AND they fit our strut tubes properly, that's awesome. Would need to get specs on those spacers, use a set of accurate calipers to measure the inner diameter of our strut tubes (in case different than AE86), and then carefully calculate the height needed of the spacers. I think this would be a cost effective way of getting a Tokico Illumina into the front ends. Maybe someone can give it a try and report. William, you got some spare susp parts now right? (sorry, sensitive topic). Maybe take apart a front strut, measure, compare to the MR2 rear struts.

Don L.

[williamb82]

well, im ahead of you on that. eric has some stock front shocks lying around and i will compare them to the aw11 shocks i have and find out. i cant pull anything off of my 84 till i get a settlement.if they wont let me buy it back ill throw a busted 5m i have in it with a busted w58 and a busted diff, etc.... of coarse they will whine when it has no interior or stereo, or ecu, or engine electrics, blah blah blah. hopefully i can buy it back cheap and complety strip it to the bare shell.

[SlimFastSupra]

I used to think that it wouldn't be too hard to fit MK3 rears on the MK2 rear. All you would need is an washer/top for the strut to preven it from coming through the top hole, and a dust cover for the top of the struts. The bottoms are the same so thats a bolt on.


anyone thought of trying that?

[CJSREDPRA]

Well, I'm sure this can be done.........

The problem is that we're trying to retro fit manual adjustable shocks from other applications onto our MKII's. AFAIK, I don't know of anyone that is making manual adjustable shocks for the MKIII's. Either you can get standard Non-Adjustable shocks/struts (but why bother when products for the MKII are easily available), or you get the MKIII TEMS adjustable shocks/struts, which won't work on our MKII's to begin with.

[SlimFastSupra]

You are right, there are few to none as far as manually adjustable. KONI is about it and they are WAY too pricey for this application. It wouldn't be hard to put the TEMS Actuators on the tops and wire in a switch. The TEMS actuators actually mount to the strut itself and not to the body or strut top. It would be an interesting conversion!

The best ones to use would be KYB AGX, but they dont make an MK3 strut. I bet with some trial and error we could find something that would work.

I found a few other candidates, such as DSM rear:

http://www.ecanfix.com/~aclifford/tree/images/index/mydsm/suspension/kyb/k08.jpg

also toyota tacoma rear bilsteins, 2000 celica rear, pontiac firebird rear, Mazda 80s FC3s rear, 87+ mustang rear, 82-02 camaro all have a shock with a similar bottom mount to the MK2, so those are some options.

[Racefiend]

Hey, if TTT makes those strut housing spacers AND they fit our strut tubes properly, that's awesome. Would need to get specs on those spacers, use a set of accurate calipers to measure the inner diameter of our strut tubes (in case different than AE86), and then carefully calculate the height needed of the spacers. I think this would be a cost effective way of getting a Tokico Illumina into the front ends

If this helps any, I was able to put the ae86 tokico's into the mk2 housing and the mk2 gab strut into the ae86 housing. Same clearance. Without the use of precise instruments, they seemed identical in width/length.

Christian

[Don L.]

Christian:

The AE86 strut inserts sound like a good option in the MK2 fronts. Also, it makes the TTT strut housing spacers sound like a good fit if someone needs to fit shorter strut inserts into a MK2 housing.

I originally looked for KYB AGX adjustable shocks for the rears and the KYB tech person suggested their part# 743019 for the '82-'92 Camaro/Firebird rears, or part# 743020 for '87-'93 Mustang rears. Problem with both of these is the extended length is only 20.2" and compressed length is 12.13". Too short. Especially for fairly stock height cars or Eibachs, drop into a hole and the shock may run out of extended travel. On my lowered Supra, the lower shock mount to upper shock mount distance is about 18". Others are probably riding higher. The Rancho RS9000 shocks are 22.3" extended, 14" compressed. A nicer fit.
Yeah, its a truck shock, but I run a LSD from Detroit Locker fame too :)

Lets all keep looking for good options :)

Don L.

[BlackSupra]

Try using the RA60 front struts

Refer to another current thread:

http://www.celicasupra.com/~mikecs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1106

[BlackSupra]

Try using the RA60 front struts

Refer to another current thread:

http://www.celicasupra.com/~mikecs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1106

[ITSUKI Drifter]

Don L.

How was the ride on the Ranchos for I am still looking for some nice adjustable shocks for the reer for some serious tuning on hard launches on the drag strip. I have tried the gas-a-just per say by a buddy of mine who is into muscle cars and he gets good performance out of it but it was to hard for my car and would not give me a good weight transfer. LMK about the performance of offtheline launch and i might get a set of four myself.

Jay

[Don L.]

Jay,

Initial feeling on the Ranchos (rears) is that they are adjustable only on rebound. Compression is not adjustable (most single adjustable shocks are this way). Frankly, the compression on the Ranchos is a bit softer than the Konis I was using from a E36 BMW. But the rebound has a very nice range of adjustment. As I recall, drag launch you WANT a soft rear on compression to squat and develop traction ? These might be good for that. Ride on the street is very comfortable. I will try them on the autox this weekend. I wish I had another set of rear shocks to compare the Ranchos to in compression. Maybe Ray Fong and I should get together ?
Hey Ray, you out there ? Autox at Candlestick this Saturday, you're done with finals right ?

Don L.

[Racefiend]

Jay,

Initial feeling on the Ranchos (rears) is that they are adjustable only on rebound. Compression is not adjustable (most single adjustable shocks are this way). Frankly, the compression on the Ranchos is a bit softer than the Konis I was using from a E36 BMW. But the rebound has a very nice range of adjustment. As I recall, drag launch you WANT a soft rear on compression to squat and develop traction ? These might be good for that. Ride on the street is very comfortable. I will try them on the autox this weekend. I wish I had another set of rear shocks to compare the Ranchos to in compression. Maybe Ray Fong and I should get together ?
Hey Ray, you out there ? Autox at Candlestick this Saturday, you're done with finals right ?

Don L.

Hey Don, you can use my GAB rear shocks for comparo if you want. Its not like I'm using them.

LMK

Christian

[Don L.]

Thanks Christian !

Getting together is always the difficult thing. You are in the North Bay ?

If you want to come by Candlestick this Saturday, I'll be there and can bring one of my Konis and Ranchos.

Don L.

[Racefiend]

Unfortunately I have my friend's graduation bBQ to go to on saturday. If it was at GGF I would stop by, as its not too far off from where I'm going. If you want I can send it to you? OR we can meet up some other time and compare. I live in Vacaville, BTW. Have car, will travel though.

Christian

[Racetek82]

This saturday? dammit..I have to work 9am-530pm....lolz...lemme know earlier next time..I'm always game for a meet! I think me, Don, and Christian need to get together. Share some ideas on my suspension workings.

I really need to find an appropriate shock for the rear, I would expect that if you're buying a coilover kit, you'll be lowering your car more than what the Eibach's allow. So I figure a short stroke shock would be in order. I already have plans to work with KONI on the shocks and strut inserts. I took into consideration Christian's work, and I'm looking into using AE86 struts inserts, revalved for the MK2. Need to see if I can get these adjustable though. I want to use the rears for the AE86 also, but they're no listed as adjustable, lets see how many i need to buy from KONI to make this happen.

I WILL be selling my coilovers as a complete kit, meaning front and rear with shocks and all necessary hardware; including strut spacers, and rear trailing arm supports. The reason for selling it like this is because shocks differ in shapes and sizes, it would make it difficult to have tight tolerances on the coilover sleeves. I want to offer a quality product, not one that requires spacers or adapters galore.

[Racefiend]

I already have plans to work with KONI on the shocks and strut inserts. I took into consideration Christian's work, and I'm looking into using AE86 struts inserts, revalved for the MK2

Why not use the ae92 ones so you can have 40mm shorter stroke? Koni makes top adjustable inserts for the ae92, their ae86 inserts are off car adjustable. The ae92 ones are also gas charged, while the ae86 ones are not. Short stroke and on car adjustable sure seems good to me.

Christian

[Racetek82]

See..this is exactly why I said we need to meet up lolz....leave it to Christian to enlighten me and save me a lot of trouble. ahaha...thanks dood!

[SupraFiend]

I have a friend with an ae86 running mid 80s camaro shocks in the rear. Apparently they bolted right on and are nice and stiff (they're just monroes). Mind you he is dropped well over 3 inchs so he wanted a shorter shock.

[Racefiend]

Problem there is that the Camaro shocks are already almost 3" shorter extended than the ae86 shocks, which are already 2 1/4" shorter than the mk2. Thats a total of over 5 inches. I don't think its even possible to lower our cars that much.

Christian

[Don L.]

Ray,

Yeah, would be good to get together and share some ideas and specs.
Christian is an excellent resource for more than I can imagine.

Not sure when the next autox locally that I can attend, but I live in Fremont and we can always meet at my house, or a shop if you have access.

Appreciate all you work.

Don L.

[Racefiend]

We should work something out and meet up. Have a big suspension pow wow. I'm available evenings and during the weekends, so whenever you guys are available, let me know.

Christian

[Eight-Six]

anyone tried standard AE86 shocks in the rear on a lowered car? btw the front damper inserts on the AE86 have some play in them. When I installed Tokico HTS there was a few degrees of play before I installed the strut cap. I was planning on tryin to see if I could adapted some to work with the MA60 and find a good rear shock.

[ITSUKI Drifter]

Jay,

Initial feeling on the Ranchos (rears) is that they are adjustable only on rebound. Compression is not adjustable (most single adjustable shocks are this way). Frankly, the compression on the Ranchos is a bit softer than the Konis I was using from a E36 BMW. But the rebound has a very nice range of adjustment. As I recall, drag launch you WANT a soft rear on compression to squat and develop traction ? These might be good for that. Ride on the street is very comfortable. I will try them on the autox this weekend. I wish I had another set of rear shocks to compare the Ranchos to in compression. Maybe Ray Fong and I should get together ?
Hey Ray, you out there ? Autox at Candlestick this Saturday, you're done with finals right ?

Don L.

Don L.

I have tried to use a monroe set and it is a little to soft still then went with the KYB Gas-a-Just and to my excitement it is good for high spirited driving while in drag racing it is not acceptable due to to hard of a shock, then I got some gas-matics and that thing is also too soft and from the way i look at my car is looks like it has blown shocks and shoot spring. I went and ask my friend who works a t a performance shop and we looked for some shocks and he went and called CompEng and they said they have one for the 85 supra but when i checked their site is was for the MK3... well they have some shoks for the older celica and corolla but it was 2 inch shorter from our MK2 rear shocks... then i we were looking at QA1 but they have one that is about 1 inch shorter but my friend haven't have a chance to order for fitting on the car...

It would be really nice to see and compare shocks for our cars... I would like to meet up with you guys but I am on the other side of the country. Just LMK know what comes up and I will see if I can some source some other shocks for our car for better handling.

Jay

[Don L.]

Jay,

good point about some shocks make the car look lower in rear. The Ranchos I just put on are not gas pressured, but the Konis I took off were low gas pressured. The rear of my car seems to have settled almost 1/2" lower now. I'm going to shim the rear higher by using some poly hose from hardward store on top and bottom coils of my rear springs. This is my ghetto way of fine tuning the height :)

Don L.
(wishing the the spendy double adjustable shocks)

[ITSUKI Drifter]

Don L.

BTW... the shocks I have now (gas matics)yeah I know it the cheap ones... but I am still in the process of getting the right shocks for the rear... well being too soft makes the car hit the bump stop on hard lauch out of the corner and also some bottoming out when shifting to second gear.

Jay

P.S. I have about two sets of rubber spacers from the new toyota camry when they come from Japan to the dealer. I might pop it back in and see if this will help some. Or if you want to try it I can send you a set for the rear.... It is actually a rubber spacer used for the spring so that it won't sag during shipping across the pacific

[Don L.]

Jay,

Thanks, I'll try a few different things to raise the rear 1/2" first, then think about bump stops. I didn't want bump stops originally with the konis because I was concerned about the sudden increase in shock resistance when the bump stop is contacted. My springs in rear are fairly stiff, maybe good enough.

Don L.

[ITSUKI Drifter]

Don L.

How was the ride on the koni's BTW. Are they adj. and how much is it?? I mean hard launching... how much squat did you get on the koni's??

Jay

[Don L.]

Jay,

The yellow koni sports I've run for the past 3+ years. Single adjustable for rebound only, but the compression setting is stiffer than the Ranchos I just got. My rear springs are approx 300 lbs, so the ride is pretty firm anyway, but with the Konis or Ranchos the ride is fine, unless I hit a pretty big bump at freeway speeds. Rear springs are non-progressive and is prob the reason I get no squat on acceleration. The konis definitely helped with that too. Everyone keeps saying the stock rear springs are best for drag racing, and I don't dispute that. At stock height the rear camber is better, and you get more squat. I don't drag race so I prefer my car not to shift lots of weight front to back on take offs.
My guess is that with stock springs in rear, or even the Eibachs, the Konis will be ok for launching but still a bit too stiff. That's just a wild guess on my part though. Think about the Ranchos. Made for rear of a Isuzu Trooper. Compression is softer than I would have guessed. The rebound adjusts till you really can't extend the shock. Set full soft, it prob would give a great ride.

Don L.

[ITSUKI Drifter]

Don L.

Well I will just have to see about the ranchos when I get the chance to order it from Summit. By then I will just have to settle with what I got.

So what kind of springs are you running anyway and are you still in factory spec ride height. And do you know what the stock spring rate is...LMK... I still what stock ride height for I am running tall DOT slicks on my car 26"... and with the stock springs it is about .25-.5" gap. I will try this week end or so the rubber hose on the spring to raise it up a little biut when I get to the track.

Isn't there is somebody who is making a rubber spacer for the bottom/top or the spring on the rear.... I am not sure who it is, but pretty sure it was on the old topics... I just cannot find that topic. Do you have any idea who might it be???

Jay

[williamb82]

well, i agree wit hthe stock height fro drag racing, personally id like a 1/2-1" higher hight and a stiffer then stock spring at the track. when the tires hook, the rear end drops alot. with stock springs i was sitting on the bumpstops for over 1/8th mile and spinning as a result. personally, for the best compromise i would like stock rear height with double the stock spring pressure, maybe more when i up the power more. a 5m stock might be ok but a highly modded 7m it just wont do at all.
william

[williamb82]

oh, and jim king is the one working on the spacers for the rear springs.
william

[Don L.]

I'm not sure of the stock spring rates, but I think Eibachs are approx
175 lbs/in in rears and 250 lbs in front. Not positive, and not sure where to look it up, but that's just my estimate. Makes sense if you have a built motor, drag slicks, you car would squat in rear much more than mine (little ole built 5mge). I'll defer the drag race rear susp tips to others.

Also, if you are going to try the hose on the coil spring ends to raise the rear of the car, I'd suggest not the rubber hose, but the clear plastic stuff. Wears a bit longer but still after 2 years need replacing. At least its cheap.

Don L.

[82Spearco]

You guys are talking about a spacer to put on top of the spring, right? Some kind of hose? My drivers side is 1" lower than my passenger side. I want to put in a spacer to level the car. I was thinking some kind of hard rubber???

[SupraFiend]

has anyone tried some of the spring spacers on the market? My local parts store has several on the shelf. The bottom of our springs might be hard to find a match for but some of these might fit the tops

[williamb82]

well, i put some 1in metal spacers in my rear springs. they are the twist in kind. cost like $6. i put those in the day i went to the 1/8th mile track and as dave can attest i got some serious traction off the line. it hooked hard, then the rear tires broke loose and when they grabbed again "BOOM". the spacers raised the rear of the car noticeably and it seemed to increase the spring pressure. it even started cornering better right off the bat. heres a link to daves post about my launch.


http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mk2/message/95200


william

[jdk_ii]

Yes, sometime this summer, I will be investigating the mfg rubber spring spacers.

Perfect for Eibach owners who have that permanent squat.

Basically, the same style as stock, but 3/4" to 1" longer.

I made a prototype and installed it on top of the stock cushion
to compensate for the Eibach's drop.

It works, though a bit squeaky, as it's two pieces of rubber.

The main issue is I need to have a mold made. Preferably aluminum
as silicone molds are too much trial and error.

I need to find a shop that can make these at a reasonable price,
which is a bit of a challenge for a one-off piece.

The same applies to the console foam replacement. The primary delay as well.

[82Spearco]

Keep up the fine fight, Jim. To be honest, the passenger side of my car is about the height I want, I just want to raise up the drivers side by 1". So keep up posted on the spacers. Meanwhile, I will be on the lookout for options.

William, do you have any details on the spacers you were usings?

[Racetek82]

I called KONI the other day...they suggested using their adjustable Motorsports edtion strut inserts rather than the AE92's. Mainly because the AE92's are not revalvable. I will look into that as soon as I have some free time. Still in search of some good short stroke shocks for the rear. I asked about the AE86's, but the tech guy gave me a sort of vague answer to whether or not they can revalve them for me or not. I'll look more into this asap, let you guys know what I find.

[Don L.]

Hi Ray:

Did Koni mention if the Motorsports inserts they suggested was the 8610 single adjustable ? I have this in my fronts, with the shortened strut housing. The length of the strut insert body is 330mm, max stroke length of 550mm, minimum of 451mm. Total stroke length is 151mm. This has been a great strut insert for my autocrossing. I think the limited amount stroke is a detriment on the street. Their 8611 double adjustable strut insert had me excited for a bit, length looked close to stock dimensions but then realized the adjustment for the compression is at bottom of the insert. Not too possible for our cars.

I was quite pleased with the performance of the Rancho RS9000 in the rears at yesterdays autocross. Because of the bumpy course, I started at the setting 3, and by my third run was at softest setting (at setting 1). Left it there for drive home, not a bad ride.

Don L.