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'82 Celica Supra dies "randomly"

28K views 144 replies 9 participants last post by  Phillip Bromley 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey guys. I've been a long time lurker, but I'm new to posting here. I'm having problems with my '82 Celica Supra P-Type dying randomly while driving.












It only had 42,000 miles on it when I bought it (has almost 50k on it now). Despite the low mileage, it still has its fair share of problems that I have been trying to work out over the last two years.

Pretty much all of the problems I have had with it have been electrical issues. I am the third owner. The second owner bought it to be his son's college car, so I can imagine a college kid hacking at the wiring trying to be cheap by not taking it to a mechanic, despite not knowing what he was doing.

When I got it the wiring was a train wreck. There was basically a huge rat's nest of wiring under the fuse box, which wasn't even bolted down, it was just sitting loosely behind the battery. The battery itself was of course also just dropped into the engine compartment, nary a bracket in sight.

The flip-up headlights never worked: Only one would come up, and when you turned them off, only the other one would go down. I unhooked the headlight relay, and just leave them up for now. There are also random wires which have been cut from under the fuse box, their purpose unknown to me. Basically, this car is an electrical disaster.

This brings me to the problem I am having today:

The car turns over strong and fires up just fine, but after driving for an indeterminate amount of time, it will just shut off. After shutting off in such a manner, the car will still turn over strong (indicating the charging system still works) but will not start.

I've tried unplugging and re-connecting the air mass sensor, TPS, and even randomly rustling wires around the fuse box, to no avail.

After several minutes of waiting, the car will always fire up again (as if it never happened) and run for several more minutes only to shut off again. The last time it did this, I just parked it without trying to fix it. But after a couple hours, the car still fired up again despite leaving the car exactly as it was when it died.

I can think of so many potential causes of this problem, that I'm overwhelmed as to what it could be. I suspect possibly fuel pump, ignitor, coil, ECU, air mass sensor, etc. I have a spare air mass sensor, so I'm going to go try that. The problem is that I cannot consistently reproduce the problem other than by driving around and getting stuck somewhere, so it will be difficult for me to test: 32:

It doesn't even necessarily shut off at consistent intervals. Last weekend I drove it 1.5 hours to Forth Worth from Dallas, and it shut off just as I arrived into town. I let it sit there as I ate lunch, and then it drove fine for the remainder of the weekend and the whole trip home. Then the next week it drove without issue for two commutes to work and back (45 minutes each way), but died again as I was almost home the third day. Then last night it drove for like 10 minutes before dying. After several minutes of waiting, it started up again for only like 3 minutes. Then after a couple hours, I was able to get it all the way back home.

If there is some obvious solution I am missing, please chime in. I would really appreciate the help. I've been trolling the forums for anybody with a similar issue, but I'm coming up with nothing so far.

Regards,
Phillip.
 
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#29 ·
Corrosion is not such a bad thing.
As long as the internals work.

IF it does,as is,you can pull it off and clean it up quite well.
I used some nasty acid wash for UN COATED aluminum wheels on my cam covers with medium results.
I have used oven cleaner in the past.
Otherwise ,it's gonna be Scotch Brite and some elbow grease,as they say.

Test it to see if it fires the car up and test it for 2 days,at least. Hotter,the better.
$100 is OK if it works!

The other 'psycho' one will be in the car for a back up.
You are going to get really good at swapping them out.
We all are,already.:salute:
 
#30 ·
Here's the outside of the ignitor in question:




The insides don't look much better:







Looking more closely however, it seems as though that's not actually oxidation on the circuitry. It may be that the corrosion inhibiting "goop" that the board is dipped in is drying up. You can see it the same sealant on my original ignitor from my initial posts. Even still, the fact that it's drying up may be an issue.

TL;DR version:

The car started, but stutters really bad when I hit the gas. It was doing this, albeit not as severely when the old ignitor was installed. Is it the ignitor? Unplugging the TPS resulted in no change whatsoever. Is it a bad TPS? Something else?

Detailed version:

I just got back inside from testing the "new" ignitor. I'm sad to say that the results were inconclusive. The first two attempts to start the car were unsuccessful. On both attempts I turned the car over for 4 seconds. During those four seconds, the car was turning over very strong yet still not starting.

Before making a third attempt I double-checked my wiring and connections. I discovered that the wire on one of the green plastic connectors leading to the ignitor had backed out of its connector. The plug I am referring to is the "third" one that doesn't connect to the coil, and has only a single wire going to it. The wire had backed out on the harness side, so the loose connection could have been an issue for both ignitors (more on that later).

I re-seated the wire into it's connector, then proceeded to attempt to start the car for a third time. After turning over for two seconds the car started.

I should note that I would consider two seconds an abnormally long time to turn over for this car. Prior to the recently developed problems aforementioned in this thread, the car typically wouldn't even turn over once; It would instantly start upon turning the key barring cold weather (in which case it would still start after turning over for less than one second).

immediately after starting, the engine began to bog down to less than five hundred RPM and almost died. After approximately three seconds of bogging, it recovered and began idling (it recovered without any throttle input). The engine normally fluctuates between six and eight hundred RPM over the course of several seconds whilst idling. Tonight however, it seemed to want to fluctuate between five and eleven hundred RPM and over a shorter duration than normal (approximately three to four seconds).

Upon applying a very slight throttle input, the engine immediately began stuttering, sputtering, and bogging down (nearly dying). A slightly sharper throttle input resulted in the same stuttering, etc. but then it smoothed out and began to rev properly. I let the engine return to idle and repeated this several times, with similar results each time.

After a couple minutes of idling, I was able to apply very gradual throttle input and get the engine to rev up without stuttering or stumbling. Anything more than the gentlest input still resulted in stuttering, however. By this point, the engine was at least idling properly and not bogging down like it was after first starting it.

All of the aforementioned stuttering issues were present (albeit to a lesser extent) while the old ignitor was installed during the last couple weeks. Typically though, the sputtering would stop after the engine warmed up. Could this mean that this ignitor is even worse than my original one? Or on the other hand, could this merely be a progression of a problem unrelated to the ignitor?

While the car was idling, I unplugged the TPS and repeated the same series of throttle inputs as described above. The exact same results occurred without regard to whether the TPS was plugged in or not. Could this be due to a failing TPS, or rather that the problem is so severe that the reduced throttle response from unhooking the TPS is not noticeable?

I have the old ignitor disassembled on my desk. Once I apply the sillicone thermal pads to it, I will re-install it and see if these same issues persist. I realise that it may be difficult to diagnose the problem until then.

Another test I intend to perform is to start the car, and then wiggle/unplug the connector to the ignitor from which that loose wire had backed out of, to determine if that connection (or lack therof) what is causing the car to die, rather than the ignitor itself.

I am also going to re-install my old AFM, and see if that changes anything.

It's disappointing that the ignitor didn't instantly fix all of my problems like I hoped. But that's okay. I have this "curse" whereby I always have the worst luck with everything I touch, but as a result I learn about the system/device/process/etc. very quickly and become proficient with it in short order. If my car didn't break down so often, I probably wouldn't know most of what I know about cars today. :p
 
#31 ·
The orange residue is most likely solder flux from when the module was manufactured and the wires were soldered to it.

The best way to clean a circuit board is to use electronics grade (NO water -"Anhydrous"-) Isopropyl Alcohol, and a brush with short, stiff NON-metallic bristles.

Then just scrub the daylights out of it, and rinse with a flush of the Isopropyl alcohol.

DO NOT use "rubbing alcohol" because it has water in it, and may have other things like glycerine or "fragrance".

The "glop" is called conformal coating, and is meant to seal the soldered connections and circuit board foil from moisture, reducing or eliminating corrosion.

You can also use isopropyl alcohol to clean the contacts on the connectors, but I prefer "DeoxIT", which is first class stuff.
 
#32 ·
DUUDE! I wish that all of the arm chair diagnostics requests were THIS detailed!!!!!

I'll vote for NOT an igniter issue,considering these new developments.
As for the cold start issues,the TPS cannot be at fault.
You have an analytical brain that works quite well. Lucky you.

There are other issues that need to be gone through.
The cold start thing IS disturbing.A.... Totally separate diagnostic path will be taken,here.
TPS may act up only when warm,like the igniter.

Again,I must give you an "Atta Boy" for such a detailed description of the symptoms,Texas boy.

"Hey,my car won't start" Just won't fly anymore,here.

You should have a FAT, BLUE spark that will toss your ass across the garage,if it bites you.
Hot or cold engine.(Been there).

Diagnostics is the most difficult area of automotive! Let's...TRY... to figure this out for you.
You have the MOST experienced Supra owners right here.

Hey,can I get another beer,here?
:thumbsup:
 
#33 ·
DUUDE! I wish that all of the arm chair diagnostics requests were THIS detailed!!!!!
[...]
"Hey,my car won't start" Just won't fly anymore,here.
Thank you for your kind words. I was afraid I was coming across as too long-winded, but I'm glad to hear my "state of the Supra" dissertation was appreciated. The way I see it, adequately describing the symptoms and the (hopefully forthcoming) solution will help other people out in the future who may read this.

I'm about to go outside and do some more tests pretty soon here. I plan to take video/pictures, and I'll report back as to what I find.

I plan to test the following:

  • Repeat tests from last night under identical conditions (to determine if problems persist, worsen, or mysteriously disappear)
  • Put old AFM back on, and repeat above tests.
  • Whilst car is idling, wiggle/unhook connector going from the ignitor to God-knows-where, to determine if it is a potential cause of the random dying issue.
  • Any other worthwhile test I can come up with and am capable of performing.
 
#35 ·
Just install the ugly igniter and try it out. I would not HOT UNPLUG the unit.if it passes the tests,pull it back off and clean it carefully,using drjim's advice of chemicals.
IF it fails to start,see if you can return it.
Check for spark with the replacement.
You may have a cold start valve issue as well. Cold start injector. CSI.

Get it Warmed up fully and drive down the street a few times.
Get brave and drive it to work.
 
#38 ·
Well, I am pleased to report a positive development!

TL;DR version:

It works (for now)!

Detailed version:


I began by following the procedure I outlined in my previous post. This began with starting the car as I left it last night, with adjustments or changes whatsoever. I did this to establish a control, thereby ensuring that if what I changed fixed the car, that my change was in fact what fixed it, rather than pure luck.

Note that for both of the below tests, I left the "new" ebay ignitor installed from the previous night.

This was the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix2VqjDPiAg

This is almost exactly how the car behaved last night. I hope it makes more sense seeing/hearing it than from reading my written description from last night.

My next step in the procedure was to put the old AFM back on the car, and then attempt to start the car again and repeat the same test.

The results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5BjTZauZsM

Much improved! The stumbling/stuttering is still very slightly noticeable. I honestly do not know for sure if this was happening prior to the ignitor failing or not. It may have just always been there, and I am now noticing it since I was specifically looking for it due to the outcome of the original test. Overall though, it seems about the same as it was before the car started dying randomly.

Since the car was now idling on its own, I let it continue to do so to see if my original issue of the car dying randomly reoccurred. I let the car idle for fifteen minutes without any throttle input whatsoever.

I heeded ddd228's advice, and decided to refrain from messing with the plug on the ignitor while the car was running. Here is a photo of the plug in question, in case my written description from last night was not helpful:



If anybody can comment on the purpose it serves, I am curious and would like to know.

I also was wondering what this thing is on my throttle body:



Curious as to whether or not it was relevant to the issues at hand, I turned it a quarter turn one way and then a quarter turn the other way as the car idled. I did not notice any change, and returned it to its original position. It was not snug and offered little to no resistance when turning it.

After the car had idled for fifteen minutes, I decided to take it for a test drive around the block. As I rolled down the parking garage (I live in a apartment complex), I chuckled when the rumbling of the 5M-GE set off a car alarm. The car has an exhaust leak before the muffler which makes the car loud. And I like it that way. But I digress...

Anyway, I began by just cruising without pushing the car very hard. I was shifting at about 2,500 RPM. After about ten minutes, I decided to open it up a lot more. I made a couple quick pulls to 45-50 MPH with the gas to the floor, shifting at around 6,000 RPM. I did this about six times without issue.

After this I returned to the parking garage, setting off the alarm of the same car as I had on the way out. :laugh:

After parking the car, I placed my hand on the ignitor housing. It was hot! Not hot enough to burn, but hot enough to prevent me from touching it for more than two seconds or so. With the old ignitor, when the car would randomly die, I performed the same test. Each time, the ignitor was not nearly as hot to the touch as this new one was tonight.

My hypothesis for this is that the old ignitor has faulty thermal compound. Heat from the electronics is therefore not properly sinking to the housing, causing the housing to feel cooler despite the insides being hotter. On the other hand, the new ignitor is apparently the opposite: The thermal compound is working, therefore heat is sinking to the housing and making the ignitor feel hotter and therefore the internals cooler. Thoughts?

Alternate theory: The new alternator is also a piece of junk and overheating and will eventually fail in the same manner as the original one.

On the agenda for tomorrow:

  1. Continue driving the car for longer periods of time to see if it dies.
  2. Begin desoldering the transistor and other "mystery package" from the old ignitor, and prepping surfaces for thermally conductive sillicone pads.
  3. Try to return the faulty AFM I bought that didn't work.

I'll report in again tomorrow evening after I drive the car some more.
 
#39 ·
That sounds a whole lot healthier :thumbsup:

It might also be small compound issues adding to the problem. I noticed my car runs better with one afm over another with the dizzy setup. Running two clicks on afm mod (extra afm), a couple degrees advanced with higher octane found the sweet spot and got rid of hiccups. Dont know what to say about the heat...cool runnin.
 
#40 ·
Results of tonight's testing:

I started the car and let it idle. It died after only five seconds! This was a cold start, and I didn't give it gas at any point. Never before has it died so soon after starting, other than when the bad AFM was installed as I recorded last night. In the latter case, the engine bogged down really badly before finally dying. This time, it just shut off in the same manner as it has when the old ignitor was installed.

It gets more confusing: Unlike all previous times my car died from what are presumably ignitor issues, it started again immediately upon turning the key three seconds later. When it died with the old ignitor on, it would take at least several minutes of waiting before starting again.

I let it idle for fifteen minutes. It did so just fine with no issues. I proceeded to to drive it around town for another hour, running just as well as it had before it started randomly dying. I started by going easy, and then gradually driving the car harder as time went on.

After I shut the car off, I felt the ignitor housing again. It was just as hot after driving for an hour as it had been from last night's much shorter test drive. I suppose this is a good thing?

All in all, it was a successful test. Apart from it mysteriously shutting off at the very beginning, it idled/drove perfectly for an hour and fifteen minutes total.

The next test: Drive it to (and hopefully from) work tomorrow. It's like a 45 min. drive, so it will actually be a shorter drive than my test drive tonight. But I still consider it a more strenuous test, because I risk not getting to work on time. Therefore, if it's going to die again, it'll do it tomorrow morning when I'm about halfway there.
 
#42 ·
I know have some bad wiring. The entire electrical system is all screwy. I plan to re-wire the entire car, but I'll need to get another car first as it's a complex project that I've never done before. I can't try to tear it apart on a Friday afternoon and not be able to get to work the following Monday.

Symptoms of the electrical issues which I am aware of are as follows:

  1. Charge warning light does it's own thing, and seems to have no bearing on actual state of the charging system.
  2. Headlights flicker whenever I hit the turn signal and again when the turn signal switches off.
  3. As the turn signal blinks, the voltmeter dips in sync with it.
  4. The windshield wipers: Sometimes flipping the lever down is off, other time flipping the lever up is off. I'm not joking.
  5. When first starting the car, the windshield wipers will sometimes actuate one time, regardless of whether the wipers are "on" or not.
  6. Only one of the flip-up heatlights will flip up (but not go back down). The other one will go down, but not up.
  7. Many more I cannot think of at the moment.

There's enough electrical issues to start another thread.
 
#43 ·
#3 is normal.
The other symptoms gives me a headache!
#6 is an entirely separate diagnostic path.
#7 will be announced in a future time.
#2: Your car is NOT possessed,the switch inside the turn signal is fine.
That may be due to water/corrosion in the outer lights/sockets.
 
#44 · (Edited)
The car wouldn't start this morning! :32:

I went out to start the car to go to work this morning; it was running fine when I shut it off last night. But this morning, it will turn over strong yet not start! I tried three times to start it. Each time I turned it over for four seconds, but it did not start.

This is the first time it has ever done this from a cold start. The only other time it has turned over strong but not started was immediately after dying whilst running.

I am at a loss as to what it could be. Is my ebay ignitor toast too? Is this something totally different?

EDIT:

When I got back from work, I tried again. Still wouldn't start. I pulled the coil wire off and set it on the shock tower, then turned the car over again. No spark whatsoever.
 
#45 ·
OH,SHEITE!
There are so many systems involved that make a spark to the coil,it can drive you nutz.
last year,same issue.* 4 hours* of diagnostics as per the TSRM and I started throwing parts at it.
Most of the systems checked out.
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/manual.aspx?S=IG&P=1
I had another ECU and I was ready to do ANYTHING.
Pulled the glove box out and found that one of the plugs to the ECU were UN plugged. HUH?
SHE-ITE!

Fired right up. I feel your pain.
In my haste,I forgot to roll the passenger window back up and a day later, some troll car prowled my Supra.http://s514.photobucket.com/user/ddd228/media/temporary_zpsiynhk0ua.jpg.html?sort=3&o=158
http://edge.sharethis.com/images/spinner.gif

Did you get to work? Get home?
 
#46 ·
I made it to work okay, just not in the Supra as I had hoped to. I am fortunate to work right across the street from my dad, so I can carpool with him 90% of the time. But when I need to get in overtime I'm typically out of luck, because he only works 40 hours a week without exception.

Anyway, as far as my current no-spark issue is concerned, I have a suspicion that somehow my car is for some reason frying ignitors. Our initial consensus was that my ignitor was overheating, thus my embarkation on the project to re-apply thermal compound to it. Upon installation of the ebay igniter, it ran for a while but I observed the ignitor housing becoming hot to the touch. As I said before, after driving it for a while it failed to spark at all the next day.

I will finish re-applying thermal compound to my original ignitor, and re-install it. My guess is that the car will work again temporarily until that one gets fried too. What in the hell could cause that? I would hate to spend more money on ignitors without figuring out what the problem is. I'm tempted to just blow the $300 on the Rock Auto ignitor, but I'm scared it'll get cooked too.

Could somebody that has a running '82 please comment on how warm/hot the ignitor gets during normal driving? I don't have enough experience to determine if the ignitor getting hot to the touch is normal or not. That may be indicative of another problem.

I'm quickly losing the mental energy needed to deal with it. The Supra is my only car, and I've only got about $1,100 total maximum I can spend to get it running reliably. I don't want to blow all of it trying to fix the car and still end up with something that doesn't run. At that point the cash would probably be better spent on a $1000 Craigslist special that runs and drives.

How feasible would a re-wiring and Megasquirt install be on that kind of budget? I already have a Painless Performance 28 circuit universal wiring harness for most the re-wiring work. I would want to control both fuel and spark, so an MS2 (~$450) is apparently what I need from what I've read thus far.

Doing so would be a seemingly permanent solution to all the year-specific, rare, expensive, finicky parts plaguing my car (ignitor, AFM, vacuum-advance distributor, etc.). But is that practical to do on that kind of budget? I'm unsure of all the little/hidden costs associated with that kind of project, as I have done nothing remotely like it.

I've been reading up on MS systems, but it's all very overwhelming to me. I'm a machinist, so any fabricating that needs to be done is well within my capabilities. I'm just not experienced with anything electrical related.

Thanks to everybody for helping me with all of this. I am most appreciative!
 
#48 ·
I'll definitely try that. That's something I never would have thought to try. I put a new coil on it as a precautionary measure about a year ago. As such, the coil only has a few thousand miles on it. However, I suppose it could be bad. Once I fix my ignitor I'll put a new coil on it before I try starting it.
 
#49 ·
On my '84,the igniter DOES get hot.
I'm over cautious and I mounted a fan near it.
the hot soak is a real issue with our cars.
Don't freak out just yet.

NO. Don't swap the coil just yet. One thing at a time here.
Swap the crappy looking one for your old one for now.
MS may not be the solution for this week.
Don't blow your budget and I hope your brain is not fried,yet.
Get some sleep.
 
#51 ·
Assuming the voltmeter on the dash can be trusted, it stays around 14 volts almost always. It will dip down to the 13-12 range when I'm rolling the windows up or down, though.

I just got the car back from the mechanic about two weeks ago because the charging system was not working at all. He said that some sort of alternator relay had been burnt up (as in, literally burnt) that kept the alternator from charging the battery. He said that particular relay can't be had any more, so he found a way to bypass it.

Now that I'm thinking about it, that was about the time when the the car started randomly dying.

Before this, I also had issues with the car randomly dying. But, I suspect that to be due to the charging system not working properly up to that point (alternator output was around 10 volts at that time) rather than the charging system working too good and cooking ignitors. But I can't tell for sure.

I thought this was a separate issue, but now I'm starting to think that the two could be related.
 
#52 ·
#54 · (Edited)
Replace the alternator,again.


________________ ____________________ _____________
I bought one like that years ago and it saved my bacon yesterday.
It was reading 11.7 volts and the brake light was on too. I wasn't planning an alternator swap yesterday,but I had to.:32:i had to drive 3 miles to find a replacement alt,with the voltage @ 11.7 V.
and I was a little nervous doing that.

Now,my back hurts.
I had the most difficult time with power steering pump,by far! I wish that the PS pulley had large holes to make the bracket/adjuster bolt easier to install/remove. The lower bolt was nearly replaced with a stud and a nut!
The entire assembly was pulled from the block to gain access to the alt after the AFM and intake were removed.
Working in the dark,I got 'er done.
<a href="http://imgur.com/E6z5gaA"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/E6z5gaA.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
I'm getting used to Imgur.
http://i.imgur.com/E6z5gaA.jpg
 
#53 · (Edited)
That's a good idea. I went ahead and ordered one, it'll be here in a couple days. Funnily enough, I also have a 160 amp ammeter laying around somewhere. I just need to figure out how to wire it up.

EDIT:

I started working on getting the D626 device off of my old ignitor.



The old transistor:



Here's the board with it removed:



There's a lot of that mica insulator still stuck on there really good. There's like three layers of the stuff total. I've got some anhydrous isopropyl and anti-static brushes on the way. Hopefully it'll make quick work of this stuff, but I am pessimistically assuming the opposite is the case.
 
#55 ·
The Corollas and Celicas had a "charging relay" that prevents or allows the charging circuit to function,but I doubt that that relay,that was bypassed,could cause random engine dying,just a NO charge condition. Unless the voltage was to low to run the cars electrical loads:Turn on the headlights and the engine dies.

'85 charging circuit:http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/manual.aspx?S=E&P=6
Got an '82 charging circuit diagram?
The '85 system relies on 2 fuses and the fusible links.

That cigarette lighter voltmeter is a good idea!They are cheap,too.
 
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