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Thread: '82 Celica Supra dies "randomly"
12-19-2016, 09:18 PM #141
My problem as well.
6 hours of diagnostic work and I DID throw 2 parts at it.
My issue was that the ECU became unplugged.Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot!
6 hours of diagnostics and 12 minutes to fix.
Phil's issues pop up at random.
Voltage at the coil goes away. That voltage issue is now 'hot wired',but there are more spaghetti-explosion wiring issues that may pop up and bite him. Wiley Coyote? I'm thinkin' Elmer Fudd or
Perhaps with some replacement connectors,Phil can sleep at night AND it will start right up!!!!!!!
Maybe no more 'Christine' car,until our next puzzle has been presented.
My '84 may take a big s#it at any time! Then, I will need you-all to help.
We all are here,as armchair quarterbacks, to assist.
I NEED to add this:
Ohms and voltage readings are good.
A voltage drop test is even better.
It MUST be done under load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Use your volt meter at 2 points along a wire,UNDER LOAD,and see what you get.
It's nicer to the wires if you can back probe the connection.
I have been bit B-4 and now, I know.
Fuel pump issues, relay voltages available to a relay OR more importantly, a voltage drop to the component that needs a clean and viable/strong 12 V. source.
I have used a LONG jumper wire(s) to test for voltage drop.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this test B-4.
Que You Tube:
It's especially handy to diagnose a high-amp draw,like starting circuits! Head lights,heater motors,cigarette lighter voltages. ANY BIG HOG circuits:10-12 gauge or larger wires.
Works~ to save your a$$ on the really nasty head-scratchers.
Yes,I have been abusive to some wires by jamming a needle-sharp probe into a fat wire or two. Don't ram the sharp-ass pokey-thing into your finger.It will bleed for a long time.There are suitable tools for that.
Just nicely wrap some tape or a hunk of shrink tube to the exposed copper wire that has just been..violated.
It has been a real challenge for me to NOT drop any F-bombs,as usual. They are so descriptive and easy to type.
Is this a PG-13 forum?
The Internet is chock-full of snarling wolverines!
Look at the comments of some of the ($$@*%%!) on You Tube!
I try to play nice and if you 'go through life,never helping some one else,you are wasting your time'.
OK,I'm off of my soap box and you may continue with your regularly scheduled program, now.
Last edited by ddd228; 12-19-2016 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Voltage drop testing,beer.Dave in Seattle. I keep LATE hours.Hidden Content
'84 type "L" ,Auto ,daily driver. Dk blue.
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12-23-2016, 01:20 AM #142
I think I figured it out! Yay!
Here's what I've been working on the past couple days:
I spent a lot of the time trying to figure out why I could get 12v to the coil from that random plug that went to God-knows-what originally, but not when I plugged the ignitor into its proper location. I started peeling back what felt like a hundred yards of electrical tape, and here's what I've found:
It's a really sketchy looking 4-way splice. Pay attention to the black wires with the red stripe, those are what I'm talking about here. Branching out to the left is that random plug I was using to jumper the ignitor/coil. Downward is this wire going to the actual proper green ignitor plug, upwards leads to the injector resistor, and the wire to the right goes to the main relay, which switches the power to all of this via the ignition switch.
Since the random plug is part of the same circuit as the proper plug for the ignitor, the cause for the voltage drop had to be somewhere between that splice and the ignitor plug itself. The wire itself seemed to be in okay shape, so I began to de-pin the ignitor plug to see if maybe the crimp connector itself was bad.
Let's just say de-pinning the plug went a little too easy. It was effortless to pull the end of the wire out of the plug. As I was flexing the wire in my attempt to pull it out, the insulation simply shattered:
It had clearly been hardened from being exposed to excessive heat. Not good! The crimp connector itself is where things get interesting:
It looks like there's plenty of contact between the wires and the crimp connector itself, but I still had a gut feeling that something was amiss about it. All I know is when I had my jumper plugged in, the coil has 12V. When I pull it out, <3.5V. This has to be it, I told myself.
I snipped that crimp connector off, crimped a new one in place, and hooked it up into the ignitor plug like so:
I unhooked my jumper (and put that blue insulator over it to keep it from touching anything), and turned the ignition switch to "ON"...
12 Volts! I turned the key, and the car instantly fired up. A cold start at that! I was absolutely thrilled. I took the car for a short but spirited test drive (more on that in a minute), with no issues. Obviously that's not long enough of a test period to determine anything for certain, but its a promising initial result.
In the midst of all this, I have been simultaneously working on the other issue of my alternator only charging the battery when it feels like it. With the assistance of some very helpful email and phone correspondence with Ray, I have determined that there is a strong likelihood the electric fan setup currently on the car is causing these intermittent charging problems either in whole or in part.
As a result, I promptly excised this tentacled beast from my wiring harness:
It's all the wiring pertaining to the electric fan. I have posted pics of the melted relay plug earlier in this thread, but also check out what the plug going into the fan looked like:
Yikes! Ray suggested that it is likely the old fan is drawing more current due to age and is thus melting stuff. It could also easily explain why every alternator I have put on the car gets cooked in short order.
I wanted to figure out whether the fan alone is causing all of my intermittent charging problems, so I unhooked the fan and went for a quick test drive. My test results were inconclusive however, as either my cigarette light plug or $5 voltmeter was acting up, so I couldn't get a reading from it whilst driving. I still have the Blue Sea Systems voltmeter wired into the car, but I have not as yet wired up its backlight, and reading it by the streetlights while rolling down the road is not a safe endeavor.
As I pulled back into the garage, the voltmeter was resting steadily on 13V. But as I said, I do not know what the voltage was during the drive since I do not have the backlight wired in yet. 13V is still not as high as it should be though, right? I figure it should be more around the 13.5-14.0V area. This could however be due to residual damage from having that electric fan wired in up to this point.
I should note, the fan was wired so as to run 100% of the time, which I surmise is a significant contributor to prematurely wearing out the alternator. I am trying to decide whether to put a proper electric fan setup on the car with a thermostatic switch, or to go back to the stock clutch fan system. Any thoughts?
More to follow at some point this weekend.
12-23-2016, 02:15 AM #143
Looks like you've got some wiring there that was really "Bubba'ed" up. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if you found more.
When you said you were unraveling "electrical tape" was it really tape? Did it have adhesive on one side? The factory uses a non-adhesive plastic wrap to bundle the wiring harness together. If you were finding places where it was actually taped together, indicating some type of "repair" had been attempted, then I'd start seriously looking at every single harness under the hood for other signs of things being taped together.
And I'm guessing that the fan is the fan for the air conditioning condenser, and it was wired always-on for a little additional air flow for the radiator? *I* don't know if that does any good or not. I seriously doubt if that fan motor, or the wiring and connectors, is rated for a 100% duty cycle, so having it powered up all the time will definitely kill it much sooner than it would normally last.
If you decide you want manual control for it, then use heavier gauge wire, and a relay controlled by a switch.
Good job. You're definitely making progress. Sometimes the ONLY way to find problems like this this to to go hand-over-hand on every wire in every harness, and visually inspect them for damage. I've had to do it on equipment other than cars, and it takes time, and patience to do it right.1985 5-speed "Ms. Swan"
OH, What A Feeling!
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12-23-2016, 05:58 AM #144
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
- Arlington, WA
The electric fan replaced the OEM clutch fan. It's a puller setup in what looks to be a decent shroud yet the car always runs on the verge of overheating. It's probably just short of dying completely and likely is running slower than it should be at best and stalling intermittently. And then accelerating or some other change or hitting some bump or whatever starts it moving again. What it really appears to be doing is exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to do and mostly blocking the cooling air from passing through the radiator. It's a likely cause of just about everything else too. The relay trigger was hooked to the coil positive.
I also advised Philip to unwrap every single place that's been rewrapped with electrical tape looking for any more surprises. And to look for anything else that seems not as it should be absolutely everywhere. He's doing a wonderful job and I'm mostly helping him understand the details and piece it all together. And even though he's not all the way there yet, the picture very definitely is becoming clearer. What's not quite apparent yet is what likely started this avalanche in the first place. Usually folks don't mess with stuff that's working fine. But that's not always the case.
12-24-2016, 02:27 PM #145
So here's where things get interesting:
During last night's test drive (fan unhooked, but with both fan and shroud still in place), I was unable to get any meaningful charging system data due to my voltmeter not having its backlight wired in yet (I am working on that today). I did however, note that the temp gauge shot up relatively quickly. It was tickling the red end of the gauge within about 5 minutes. This is despite the cool evening (around 45F), no traffic, and hitting only a few red lights. Granted, this is not that much worse than when the fan was wired in, which tells me that the fan was definitely not doing its job.
Today, I removed both the fan and shroud completely, and had a completely different result during today's test drive:
Despite higher ambient temperatures (~65F), and hitting considerably more red lights and traffic, the temp gauge never even went as high as it had when the fan was wired in! At stoplights, I could watch the temp gauge slowly climb up, but as soon as I started driving again, it would quickly drop down as low as 1/2 to 5/8 of full scale.
When the fan was wired in and the shroud in place, during similar conditions, the gauge would always stay near the red, and would dip into the red zone during stoplights and heavy traffic. Even flying down the highway, it would never drop lower than about 3/4 of full scale.
Since it was daylight during this test drive, I could also read my voltmeter. Immediately upon starting the car, I was getting about 12.8 volts. As soon as I started driving it went up to about 13.2-14.0 volts, and stayed within that range during the entire drive. I kept all the lights off the entire time, but I had a GPS plugged into the cigarette lighter port. Turning on the headlights at any point consistently caused a voltage drop of 0.8 volts.
So I guess my alternator is fine, I just need a proper fan setup, and I should be good to go for the most part! Still lots of other things that need fixing, but nothing that's crippling the car.
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