Sway bar specs... - Page 2

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  1. #11
    CelicaSupra.com Member drjim's Avatar
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    @Don

    "Conventional wisdom" used to teach that the stiffest end of the car would lose traction (push or oversteer) first.

    So if the front is plowing, we'd either soften the front bar (or springs) or add a rear bar.

    If the back end got loose, we'd do the opposite.

    Does your car respond this way?
    1985 5-speed "Ms. Swan"

    OH, What A Feeling!

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  3. #12
    CelicaSupra.com Member CLToy's Avatar
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    Wink Update from Addco...

    Quote Originally Posted by SupraFiend View Post
    Definitely fix the geometry first though. Spring rates and coil overs won't do much when you're stuck with -5 degs of camber back there and you're A arms spend 50 percent of the time on the bumpstops (they need to be shortened for big drops).
    I totally agree. The camber will be addressed. This is a good recommendation.



    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    ...run big bars and slightly softer springs, as this keeps the tires in contact with ground better. Too stiff bars can be bad, too, as you can wind up lifting the inside tire off the road
    There are many a philosophy on suspension design and tuning. So far, I am of the belief that sway bars are "anti-traction bars". I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but even if you put the AW11 aside, removing the rear bar on the MA61 and increasing spring rates (albeit not enough yet) actually made the car turn better and keep both wheels planted. When the rear sway bar was installed, both wheels would almost never be in contact with the ground on a tight autox turn. And even with a 2-way trutrac LSD, both tires have to maintain contact for the LSD benefit.

    Jim, please keep in mind that I believe that I could most definitely learn a thing or two from you and I mean no disrespect from differing from your statements; however, your second statement is in support of my above rationale...with a too stiff of a sway bar. This is where I am going with this. Sometimes ANY swaybar is too much of a swaybar! Haha


    Quote Originally Posted by Don L. View Post
    With the right spring rate in front, I don't see a huge problem running without a sway bar though. Certainly would save 15-20 lbs of front end weight.
    I am going to give the front bar tuning a try...and maybe try without as long as I can approximate rates...see below.

    --------------

    I know that going away from sway bars is 'crazy-talk' to many people...believe me I was one of them...but I took a leap of faith with the AW11. The weight distribution is different on a mid-engine vs. a FR design chassis; however, if you apply the concepts correctly, the philosophy works.

    The larger rates are on the FRONT of the AW11, not the rear like most people would assume. I may have people's attention now....

    Read this....
    http://www.mr2oc.com/45-auto-x/29827...ost-xhead.html

    And you can check out my STS AW11 build with my own learning curve, in my signature line.

    ** Update from Addco **

    I had a voicemail stating that the -745 front Addco swaybar has an effective spring rate of 263 lbs/inch. Just thought I would share what there tech department states as the official number.

    I appreciate the fun discussion in this thread and glad this crew hasn't totally jumped to FaceBook!
    Last edited by CLToy; 03-15-2017 at 10:47 PM.
    Chadrick
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  4. #13
    CelicaSupra.com Member drjim's Avatar
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    None taken!

    We're all here to share and learn, and I've learned tons about the quirks of these cars.

    on a tight autox turn

    That answered my question perfectly. You're tuning your car for a specific purpose, while I tend to think of "over the road" use, where being softer can have benefits.
    1985 5-speed "Ms. Swan"

    OH, What A Feeling!

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  6. #14
    CelicaSupra.com Member Don L.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    @Don

    "Conventional wisdom" used to teach that the stiffest end of the car would lose traction (push or oversteer) first.

    So if the front is plowing, we'd either soften the front bar (or springs) or add a rear bar.

    If the back end got loose, we'd do the opposite.

    Does your car respond this way?
    Agree with your statements, assuming all else is tuned optimally. In my case, couple variables affecting my goal of increasing turning ability in mid-turn of a sweeper. Initial turn in is ok, but the balance of the car doesn't allow me to fly around the sweeper at the speed I desire. If the front was over sprung, then yes softening the front would help. There is the school of thought to improve the end of the car that is lacking grip (my preference), or decrease the end of the car that is gripping better, to balance things out (my lesser preference).

    First I want to make sure that everything is working as best possible on the front suspension. Want to determine best camber, caster, toe, shock, and spring rates. With a front heavy car, understeer can occur. I run 285 race tires in front, 315 race tires in back. That alone is a recipe for understeer. The 1JZ likes the 315s in the rear to put down power. Higher rear spring rates might balance the car better as rear grip in sweepers is not the issue. My LSD also can contribute to understeer as power is fed in during the turn. Locked rear ends make the car want to go straight.

    So, obviously I'm totally baffled with the variables. Hope to figure more out this year!

    Don
    (man, I jacked Chadricks thread, sorry buddy!)

  7. #15
    CelicaSupra.com Member CLToy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don L. View Post
    (man, I jacked Chadricks thread, sorry buddy!)
    Ha! Absolutely not! This is exactly the kind of communication I want in here. I will be linking this thread to my build thread, like I have been doing all along when other threads are started.

    I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I have a sneaky suspicion that your rear rates are still not high enough. And if this is true, I am not running enough tire, nor enough spring rate myself ... I am not ready to throw out the sway bar just yet, but .... never mind. More tuning and seat time needed before I continue to talk.
    Chadrick
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  8. #16
    CelicaSupra.com Member Don L.'s Avatar
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    Nothing sneaky about it! Already ordered 16k springs for the rears (currently on 14k springs). Have 15k springs in front. So the new setup will be 840 lbs front, 896 lbs rear. That should bust a few nuts

    I am really hoping that with the T3 GTX2 front control arms, new found caster, stiffer rear springs, better alignment, the car will work better. Fitting 315 tires in front will not be easy!

    Don

  9. #17
    CelicaSupra.com Member drjim's Avatar
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    And my thinking is still back in the Stone Age compared to what you guys have.

    My Corvette race cars had a transverse rear leaf spring with front coils, while my Firebird and Camaro had "regular" rear leafs. It was easier to tune with the sway bars than swapping springs, so that's what we did way back then.....

    My MKII is basically stock, with the Raptor 3/4" lowering springs, KYB shocks, and all urethane bushings. Handles WAY better than when I bought it with the worn-out 30 year old parts!
    1985 5-speed "Ms. Swan"

    OH, What A Feeling!

  10. #18
    CelicaSupra.com Member Don L.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
    And my thinking is still back in the Stone Age compared to what you guys have.

    My Corvette race cars had a transverse rear leaf spring with front coils, while my Firebird and Camaro had "regular" rear leafs. It was easier to tune with the sway bars than swapping springs, so that's what we did way back then.....

    My MKII is basically stock, with the Raptor 3/4" lowering springs, KYB shocks, and all urethane bushings. Handles WAY better than when I bought it with the worn-out 30 year old parts!
    Just trying to keep learning as I stumble along this tuning path! All these discussion open my mind to new ideas. Chadrick's links to suspension design without sway bars has my mind contemplating. If I just remove my front bar, not change any of the springs, be interesting how the front/rear spring bias will end up. I love making changes and feeling the results (good and bad). I'm not fast, I just like building fast cars!

    Don

  11. #19
    CelicaSupra.com Member ddd228's Avatar
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    Remove the front bar?
    Nukking futz.
    You will have a lot of over steer,but some guys like that.Steer with the throttle.
    I REALLY to go DEEP into the corners. Use your brakes.

    Deep into the corners and power your way out and tear up tires.
    I prefer the neutral steer idea. Slide in and use your power to steer.
    Sweeper? That is a ton of fun.
    It's ALL about your driving style! Really.
    You set up the suspension for YOU and let the other drivers figure it out.

    The higher the spring RATE,the less the car will favor the deceleration and"see" the body weight shift.
    It's a balancing act,but it all boils down to YOUR driving style.
    See what works for YOU.
    Change and test and try a different set up:

    Spring rates.
    Sway bar sizes and adjustments(if possible).
    Ride heights.(adjustable)
    Tire sizes/stagger.
    Front to rear weight bias. (maybe)
    Toe settings. Caster settings.(Caster is a great tool) Screw camber,BTW.

    No one has YOUR set up.
    It's YOUR set up and it's the way that you drive YOUR car.

    Just slide it in to a corner and note your displeasure.Power on or power off.
    *Record these events and you will see that you can make a change to improve your drivers confidence.*

    I'm not full of crap,here.Testing and mods are done by trial and FIXING.

    * A recorder can be handy.
    "Well,that was terrible!"
    Off camber? Off throttle? ON throttle? Front "Push,ON throttle?"
    It ALL fixable,to some degree,here. Yeah,there are compromises.

    It's ALL on your driving style.
    "This car handles like crap!"
    Not for you. It handles the way that I set it up for..... ME!
    Try to drive this car like I have set it up for me.
    It would take some adjustment to HIS style.
    That's all folks.
    Comments?
    Dave in Seattle. I keep LATE hours.Hidden Content
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  12. #20
    CelicaSupra.com Member Don L.'s Avatar
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    ^^^ Love your post Dave! Truth! Everyone has a different driving style. Especially with the highly modded cars, the differences in setup can be really dramatic!

    Don

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