Shift lever questions W58 - Page 2

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  1. #11
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    Thanks a bunch, Ray for that excellent info.

    I have always sort of thought that the clutch disc is hanging up, but you have given it specifics. Oh, one more clue I forgot. Unless the shifts are done verrry slowly, with pedal mashed to the floor (as described in my above post), there's a odd little bang/bump from the rear end when going through neutral, especially when going from 2nd to 3rd. You can see and feel it in the gearshift as some sort of load is removed, even though the clutch pedal is depressed. It's like something hasn't let go of the differential. The car has done this for 120K miles now, since acquired at 40K.

    My attitude has been that it's a nuisance, and every normal shift I've ever made feels like it's doing something bad, but whatever's wrong hasn't seemed to have any worsening change or effect on clutch function. In other words, the symptoms have never changed one bit. So because it's a huge job for me to remove the trans, and I have bad hip/back/shoulder joints and no lift, and also I am relying on the car for the next year or so to be my daily driver (pending repairs to 2 other vehicles) I've kind of been waiting for the clutch to wear out and then deal with it then.

    But I'm wondering if it's worth my time and $ to replace the shifter bushings? Given that there is very little slop in the shifter, and given the other symptoms, I'm not sure if it will change anything. But on the other hand, it would remove a variable to just go ahead and do it, because after this many miles it's got to be about worn out. I don't know how much that "shiftgasm" kit costs, but maybe it's worth it?

    Thanks again for your opinion and info

    Oh, P.S. - I'm going to find where I put the old mainetenance records from the original owner and see if the clutch was ever replaced. I wouldn't think so at 40K miles, but who knows?

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  3. #12
    CelicaSupra.com Member drjim's Avatar
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    Billy's kit is $40, shipped. I don't if it will help with your particular problem, but it will definitely make the shifter feel better.

    I didn't know you'd already done all the things I suggested. And as Ray agrees with me, I agree with him. Might be time to start looking at other things.
    1985 5-speed "Ms. Swan"

    OH, What A Feeling!

  4. #13
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    OK I just got back from driving the car and paid special attention to the driveline "bang" happening when I shift through neutral. Here's the way it happened:

    I was doing 55 in 5th and approached a traffic signal. I let off the gas in gear for awhile and let the RPMs wind down, then pushed the clutch pedal down, shifted into neutral, released the pedal, and then stopped (with the gearshift in neutral and clutch pedal released while waiting for the green). Light turned green, I pushed clutch pedal in, ratched the gearshift to the left and then up to get into 1st. As I pushed it forward into first (with the clutch pedal still down), there was thud/bang in the driveline (and resistance in the gearshift lever), and then the lever went forward normally into 1st.

    It's like there's some sort of residual force that was generated in the driveline during the clutch-plate-applied deceleration, that somehow was maintained while I was waiting for the green light and was sprung and released when I moved the shifter forward.

    I remember now that awhile back I tried to study this some more, and I found that the "thud" would only happen once - meaning that after the first thud if I worked the shifter back and forth between in gear and neutral with the clutch pedal depressed, it wouldn't happen again until I let the car decelerate IN GEAR, came to a stop and then tried to go to first.

    It doesn't just happen in first; it seems to happen anytime I let the car decelerate against itself while in gear and then go to neutral, and then thuds when I go to put it back in forward gear (before releasing the clutch pedal). (The thud ONLY happens with the clutch pedal pressed down). Weird stuff - but it does sound like the clutch may be hanging up, doesn't it?

    (Jim, thanks for the info on the kit. For $40 I will go ahead and do it, as the YouTube video shows it's not hard to get at.)

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  6. #14
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    Glad I was able to help. But I think that you're over thinking this. Plain and simple thing is that your clutch is not properly releasing. That's why you have to jam it into gear and get a thud or bang. What's happening is that once you've done it, the clutch HAS to stop because the car isn't moving. Then you won't get another bang until you've been moving again.
    I learned to shift without using a clutch as a kid and have been doing it my whole life. Sometimes I'm surprised when I do use the clutch to shift. (Think genetic defects and drain bamage!) Of course I use it at stops and occasionally to have a little fun. If you were able to see and feel how it's done, you'd totally understand your problem. For example, all you have to do to shift out of any gear is to simply apply slight pressure on the shifter and let off the throttle so there's no load on the gears. To shift up or down into another gear, you apply a slight pressure on the shifter and match the RPM's and it just goes in. I've shown lots of folks how to do it simply by putting their hand on the shifter so they can feel how it works. Of course you have to be smooth and it takes a little practice, just like driving fast on snow, etc. And I'm not encouraging you to do this, just using it as a way to help you understand what's happening.
    So try this test. While stopped with your engine off, try putting it in any gear with the clutch pedal to the floor. Excluding reverse, it should go into any other gear just fine. For reverse, you might have to allow the car to move a few inches for the gears to align. It should also come out of any gear easily.
    For another test, while in motion but with the engine off and in neutral, try doing the same things. Don't let the clutch out while doing this test unless you're in neutral. And of course, do this in a safe place. I think you'll get a much better "feel" for what's happening that shouldn't be and why. But don't dwell on the technicalities of any of this. Just sort of think what this all means.
    It's not that hard to replace a clutch with a little help and a bit of planning over a weekend. However, you will have to plan ahead enough to ensure that you can get the flywheel properly resurfaced when needed.
    I or any of the other OG's (Old Guys) on here can walk you through the process and offer some helpful hints to make it all a bit easier.
    And by all means, get Billy M's Shiftgasm kit and install that too. While it's relatively easy to do with the trans in the car following his nearly id10t proof directions, it's even easier with the trans out.....
    So let me ask you this. Wouldn't you really rather enjoy the crap out of driving your wonderful car than continuing to deal with something that's obviously AFU/NFG/NFR? I thought so.
    And you'll have the satisfaction of having taken care of the problem by doing it!

  7. #15
    Boosting Mod SilverMk2's Avatar
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    Honestly from what you're describing I would suggest looking at your rear U-joint of the diff itself for the clunking. Usually clutch not disengaging you will always get a gear grinding going into reverse when stopped. If you haven't changed your shifter bushings after all these years they are most likely shot.

  8. #16
    Junior Member Daniel.W's Avatar
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    I removed the shifter again today to change oil and to try to flush out what may have been left ofthe old bushing. I used compressed air down the extension housing and also tried to flush with some gear oil i had left from earlier. It seemed quite a good idea actually since i got out a fair amount of the plastic gravel while blowing down there with compressed air.
    I found Redline MT-90 in a shop in a town nearby and bought 2 bottles (1.9L) which i thought would be plenty since my instructions book that came with the car said 1.2 liters was needed.
    After pouring in both bottles i still couldnt really feel the oil level through the side hole. My haynes manual says 2.6 qts (about 2.5L)...
    How much oil do you guys put in your W58:s?
    I gave it a test run and it feels a lot smoother. I too have a bit of clunking though. I have not looked into it yet but i suspect that the engine mounts might be a good place to start looking.

  9. #17
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    The proper level is when it just runs out the PITA fill hole. It's so much easier to fill through the shifter hole. If your clunking isn't any of the U joints or anything loose, it's likely your diff. It's due to the crush sleeve collapsing over years of use and the pinion moving in and out a bit.
    FYI, our non replaceable U joints are indeed replaceable with normal U joints with a bit of effort. Shops that do this drill out the holes for them and add the slots for the clips to hold them in place.

  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverMk2 View Post
    Honestly from what you're describing I would suggest looking at your rear U-joint of the diff itself for the clunking. Usually clutch not disengaging you will always get a gear grinding going into reverse when stopped. If you haven't changed your shifter bushings after all these years they are most likely shot.
    Hey there, sorry for the late response - got busy with life.....

    The U-joints are new. I've been going through a nightmare with propeller-shaft replacement (that's a whole 'nother thread I haven't started), and changing the U-joints did nothing. Unfortunately, this clunk has been there since Dad bought the car in '93. The car DOES grind going into reverse, unless I am careful to mash the clutch pedal all the way down and give it a half-second before moving the shift lever... The shifter bushings honestly fell pretty darn good. Almost no sideways play at all. However, I do plan to replace them on principle!

  11. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray85p View Post
    The proper level is when it just runs out the PITA fill hole. It's so much easier to fill through the shifter hole. If your clunking isn't any of the U joints or anything loose, it's likely your diff. It's due to the crush sleeve collapsing over years of use and the pinion moving in and out a bit.
    FYI, our non replaceable U joints are indeed replaceable with normal U joints with a bit of effort. Shops that do this drill out the holes for them and add the slots for the clips to hold them in place.
    I'm going to have to start another thread on this U-joint issue. Am still not done with an absolute nightmare on this. The rubber sleeve inside the rear half of the shaft can slip and it balances fine at the shop but then put it on the car and it torques up and wobbles. Again, another thread, when I get time in the next day or two, because I really could use some expert opinion on the saga so far. Quick read from me: Ray is correct as far as the nonreplaceable vs replaceable issue, but the story sometimes doesn't end there. From my own ongoing propeller-shaft mess, I'd say, don't replace your U-joints until you're sure you have to, because, at least in my case, some bad issues can blindside you....

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel.W View Post
    After pouring in both bottles i still couldnt really feel the oil level through the side hole. My haynes manual says 2.6 qts (about 2.5L)...
    How much oil do you guys put in your W58:s?
    .
    I refilled my trans recently and can't exactly remember but think it was pretty close to the 2.6 qts. What worked easily for me was just to get a small funnel, attach some tubing, drop the tubing down from the top and lay the funnel near the master cylinder, get under the car and wedge the tubing in the side hole, then put a pan under the hole. I then slowly added oil a few ounces at a time, slowly enough so that none overflows just from filling too fast, until the overflow started hitting the pan, then reinstalled the bolt.

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