Side View Mirror Repairs - Page 3

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  1. #21
    CelicaSupra.com Member supraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkycheeze View Post
    The factory spring is around 80 lb per inch (this is enormous for a door mirror) and measures 1/2" OD and just over 4" long between the inside of the hooks.

    I am actually repairing the mirrors on my car right now (the drivers side has a cracked housing so I need a replacement), the passenger side is ok but the screws are pulled out like yours (I plan to JB weld the plastic screw mounts back and build up some more JB around them to help reinforce). I plan to get all the hardware (including the hinge) replated, and get the housings painted with proper automotive paint, gloss black.

    I found a good site for better springs, I'm thinking these stainless steel ones will work well (very close to stock dimensions, a little shorter. Also stainless steel and only 12 lb/in): https://www.thespringstore.com/pe075...0-co-n-in.html

    Ideally the spring will be just strong enough to keep the mirrors from rattling while you are driving. Using a slightly shorter spring than stock (4" vs around 4.125") will add a bit of preload too.
    That's exactly what I was thinking of too. I think your choice of spring is about ideal.
    I hauled out the old luggage scale and did some measurements on the spring I have and figure the following:

    Initial Tension (lbs.): 23
    Rate (lbs./inch): 18
    Outer Diameter: 0.500”
    Inner Diameter: 0.323”
    Wire Diameter: 0.092”
    Length Inside Hook: 4.15”
    Total Coils: 33
    End 1: Machine Hook
    End 2: Extended Hook (almost a side hook, but end slightly elongated)

    What I found interesting is that the first couple of times I measured the spring pressure to pull it to 1" it was 75-80 lbs. Then after cycling it a few times, the rate dropped quite dramatically to 41 lbs. I guess the rust that you can see on mine causes the coils to bind a lot more.
    I don't know if I'm calculating it correctly, but the rate is calculated by subtracting the pressure in lbs. to pull it to 1 inch(ish) from the pressure required to just get the coils to start to separate which is the Initial tension. So the 18 lbs/inch rate is on top of the 23 lbs. initial tension.

    I like your decision to choose a 4 inch spring so that when mounted it will have slightly more initial tension than the 2 lbs. initial tension.
    The only thing not perfect is that on my mirror one of the spring ends is a side hook rather than the centered machine hook. Oh well.

    One thing I am going to do right now is to gently move the mirror on the driver side back and forth to try to break any rust free so it won't hang up the mirror if it gets bumped.

    Very interesting work funky!
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  3. #22
    CelicaSupra.com Member Funkycheeze's Avatar
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    You are correct on the rate - it would be the weight required per inch once the initial preload is overcome. All that being said, 41 pounds including the preload to get to 1 inch (or even just the 18 lb/in rate) is pretty excessive. I am hoping that the 12 lb/in stainless spring (with 2 lb preload) will be enough to keep the mirror solid even with some aerodynamic load. The factory spring when it is installed in the mirror is stretched a bit, maybe to around 4.25" total - so the 4" spring at 12 lb/in and 2 lb preload should have 5 lb of force when installed.

    I might also order a pair of the music wire springs https://www.thespringstore.com/pe075...0-mh-n-in.html - they have a 14lb/in rate and 7 lb initial tension (all other dimensions the same but with MH ends, which isn't a big deal). This would give around 10.5 lb of initial force (still way less than the factory springs at around 25 lb including initial load when extended to 4.25")
    Last edited by Funkycheeze; 12-03-2018 at 11:32 AM.
    '84 P-type, 5spd, torrid red, black/grey leather
    Built 7MGTE (JE's, ARP studs, MHG), BOSS STG4 60mm, AEM standalone, R154, 2 1/2" IC and 3" turbo back - the works
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  4. #23
    CelicaSupra.com Member supraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverMk2 View Post
    If you take that spring off I highly doubt you'll ever get it back together again.
    This is a very good point. I am hoping that if one drops the spring loading significantly, one will be able to remount the spring.
    Otherwise there will be much creative use of the Queen's English and spilled blood!

    I'm out of town right now, but I noticed that the link bar that connects the spring to the door-side hinge has a hole that doesn't seem to have a use. I wonder if it is used to mount a rod that can be used to extend the spring enough to attach the link bar to the door side of the assembly. Otherwise I have nightmares about finger wrestling with the assembly line workers who originally manufactured these parts. They would have to have fingers of high tensile steel to put these suckers together!

    Link Pin 800x600.jpg
    See the highlighted hole in the link bar. Perhaps this can be used to pull the link bar to the left so the screw hinge pin can be inserted to capture the left side of the link bar.

    Just a thought.

    Dale
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  6. #24
    CelicaSupra.com Member SupraFiend's Avatar
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    Yes aerodynamic load is key. I think you guys might be going too low on spring pressure, these will probably bow in a lot at like 160kmph etc.
    Last edited by SupraFiend; 12-11-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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  7. #25
    CelicaSupra.com Member supraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupraFiend View Post
    Yes aerodynamic load is key. I think you guys might be going too low on spring pressure, these will probably bow in a lo at like 160kmph etc.
    You know Fiend, I can just see you saying that so I'll be on the hood at 160 holding the darned thing up in the air to see if it flutters!

    That's actually a good point. At rest it seems overkill, but at 160 or even lower if there is suspension jounce, it certainly could flutter. I never really thought of that.
    Black 1983 P Type 5 Spd, Cloth Interior, BBK,HRE 17" Wheels, HKS Exhaust
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  8. #26
    CelicaSupra.com Member drjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supraz View Post
    You know Fiend, I can just see you saying that so I'll be on the hood at 160 holding the darned thing up in the air to see if it flutters!

    That's actually a good point. At rest it seems overkill, but at 160 or even lower if there is suspension jounce, it certainly could flutter. I never really thought of that.
    Don't forget to post the video!
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  9. #27
    CelicaSupra.com Member Funkycheeze's Avatar
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    I get that, which is why I am going to try the other springs that have around 10 lb of initial tension when installed. As compared to newer cars like my MR2 and the Subaru where the folding action of the mirrors is manual, but not spring loaded (there is a detent for it in both positions) which are actually quite easy to fold in, this should be plenty. An extremely back-of-the-envelope calculation (based on a flat surface at 90 degrees to the airflow direction and the same size as the front face of the mirror, so worst case) puts 24 lb of force on the entire mirror at 300 km/hr. With at least half the load being applied at the hinge, and the angle of the mirror (plus any shrouding of the airflow provided by the body of the vehicle) this should be quite a bit less at the outer edge of the mirror.

    In fact, the spring 'mounts' were broken off the inside of the passenger side mirror on my car for a long time, making it much easier to fold the mirror (the spring had almost no pre-tension as it was relying on the spring 'support' jamming between the mirror housing and adjustment motor assembly to keep it somewhat in place) and I didn't notice any major issues.

    I have always notice that the 'folding' action of the mk2 mirrors is CRAZY stiff compare to any other vehicle, especially considering how tiny the mirrors are. Going from 25 lb of initial tension to 10 lb will make it a lot more reasonable. Even 5lb from the SS spring might be enough.
    '84 P-type, 5spd, torrid red, black/grey leather
    Built 7MGTE (JE's, ARP studs, MHG), BOSS STG4 60mm, AEM standalone, R154, 2 1/2" IC and 3" turbo back - the works
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  10. #28
    CelicaSupra.com Member SupraFiend's Avatar
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    Ya just had to math it lol. Good for you, cd is pretty easy to calculate actually for flat surfaces.

    Yeah I've done a lot of fiddling with area bits on the front of these cars, hoods etc, and I've had my fair share of issues at speed so I think about this. One of these days, I'm going to finish my XX mirrors....
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  11. #29
    CelicaSupra.com Member drjim's Avatar
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    The first time I took a mirror completely apart I was astounded at that spring.

    Sucker looks like it could almost work for a small garage door........
    1985 5-speed "Ms. Swan"

    OH, What A Feeling!

  12. #30
    CelicaSupra.com Member Funkycheeze's Avatar
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    Got my mirrors put back together yesterday. Had the housings sprayed gloss black, all the hardware re-plated and lubricated the hinges with white lithium grease. Cleaned up the motors and glass - these mirrors (Murikami with the screw in the bottom) don't normally have the issue with the threaded adjusters that the other style do. These are 3 wire non-heated mirrors.

    I used these springs: https://www.thespringstore.com/pe075...0-mh-n-in.html to reduce the preload on the mirror folding, but leaving enough to keep them from moving at high speed. It also made the mirrors much easier to assemble, and should prevent issues with damage to the spring mounting holes inside the mirror. I repaired and reinforced the spring mounting holes using ABS cement and then some JB plastic weld putty. I also filed down the mounting hole that is closer to the inboard, folding side of the mirror a bit so that the metal spring holder will rest against the plastic 'ledge' instead of pulling sideways on the screws.

    Here are all the parts laid out on a soft towel - when assembling all the right hand mirror parts have a R on them somewhere so you don't get mixed up (and L for left hand mirror parts).
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JR...apgEWNHeLJAgpq

    This is the hinge installed to the mirror 'base' using 2 of the 6 large screws - I only cleaned up the parts that are visible externally.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wM...HmYcjUcfnVGt8Z

    Next step is to attach the mirror housing to the other side of the hinge with 2 more of the 6 large screws - I suggest keeping the screws slightly loose so you can adjust the alignment of the housing to the base. Any of these screws that go into plastic DO NOT overtighten them. Check the hinge action between the housing and base.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UQ...1BL289_Y1eMM-r
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z6...p4rigNvhFj8Til

    Now, using the small machine screw, install the linkage to the mirror base, and then hook one end of the spring down through the other hole in the linkage from the top, running the spring through the 'top' hole in the mirror housing into the cavity behind where the mirror glass will be.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1by...O7uuVfHS0uf0jx
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=12S...JF9Fs3487AvWh0

    Lay the mirror down on its back, holding the spring to make sure it stays hooked into the linkage. Then loop the other end of the spring onto the hook of the spring retainer, with the spring retainer end down inside the mirror housing (be careful not to scratch the external parts of the mirror housing). You can see where I reinforced the spring retainer mounting holes with JB plastic weld putty.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=12d...Rsnt_Mah7UFWRT
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=16q...kz6E_br8OMEDeu
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Zu...j8h1lr-xqbrUNk

    You will want an extra set of hands for the next steps. Stretch the spring by pulling on the spring retainer, and rest the edge of the retainer next to the inner mounting hole against the plastic shoulder/ledge that is just inboard of the inner spring retainer mounting hole on the mirror housing. Keeping it against this ledge, slowly lay the retainer down so the 2 screw holes line up with the mounting holes in the housing - all of the tension of the spring should be held by the retainer resting up against the plastic shoulder/ledge which will keep the side load off the screws and prevent the mounting holes in the plastic housing from cracking. Install the last 2 of the 6 large screws to secure the retainer and again DO NOT overtighten.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Pm..._8O9mx6cI412wX
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=10Y...fLsxkrvl8DOquk

    Now you will be able to test the folding action of the mirror - it should be held securely, but spring back relatively easily and snap back to the original position. Do not try to 'see how far it will go' as this puts a lot of stress on the housing.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Y5...W22y_86DRMRNP5

    The last step is to slide the glass assembly back in while feeding the wiring through the hole below the spring in the mirror housing and out the hole in the mirror base - it might need some gentle coaxing to go in all the way and align the screw hole in the bottom with the hole in the mirror housing. Secure with the last remaining screw, which should be the small one with the countersunk head.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eY...SU_srMcVGRhTee
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Hz...ntzV8rBhNMSljQ

    Finally, install the rubber grommet over the wiring hole on the inner side of the mirror base, making sure it seals around the wiring and mounting area properly.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ou...Um4yVbyoWsdT-I


    That's it - you can now install the mirror back on the car and test the motorized adjustment. I hope this is helpful to people rebuilding the Murikami style mirrors (which I believe are superior to the other ones as they do not suffer the same issues with the adjustment screws decaying and cracking apart). It is easy to identify which ones you have as the Murikami ones have that one visible screw in the bottom of the mirror that you can see when the mirror is installed on the car.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Hz...ntzV8rBhNMSljQ
    '84 P-type, 5spd, torrid red, black/grey leather
    Built 7MGTE (JE's, ARP studs, MHG), BOSS STG4 60mm, AEM standalone, R154, 2 1/2" IC and 3" turbo back - the works
    Coilovers, ROH wheels, 4 corner BBK, Konis, ADDCO bars, PST bushings etc. etc.

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