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Discussion Starter #402
Great pics.

Okay, so I took some pictures out in the garage tonight. I did some measuring and comparing so that some of this front hub stuff can be cleared up.

I don't have a spare strut to test fit things on, but I do have parts that I can measure and compare against each other. I'm going to assume that the Starion/Conquest front hubs and MPV rotor setup fit right on and don't require a spacer. Well, measuring my early Z31 hub against the StarQuest hub, it sticks out 1/4" farther. I also measured my Corvair hubs, and they're 1/4" shorter than the Starquest hubs so they'll require a different rotor.

StarQuest hub:


Early Z31 hub ground down outside:
This won't give accurate results. I measured these parts and others years ago much more accurately. Please see the first post from page 1 of this thread.

I measured my MPV rotor against my StarQuest front rotor. The StarQuest front rotor is 1/4" deeper than the MPV rotor.

MPV rotor:


StarQuest rotor:


So in automotive math, the StarQuest rotor and early Z31 hub should fit the same as the StarQuest front hub and MPV rotor. There's your possible alternative setup! Once the grease seal for the Z31 hub is found, then we will have the whole formula. This setup also gives an extra 1/4" of brake caliper-to-wheel spoke clearance over the Starion hub/MPV rotor setup.

MPV rotor on left, StarQuest rotor on right:


Yes the StarQuest rotor is 4mm thinner than the MPV rotor, but the cooling fins are THICKER. I would guess that the actual mass is the same, so they should both absorb brake heat equally. The next difference is the thickness of the face that is sandwiched between the hub and the wheel. The StarQuest rotor is THINNER than the MPV rotor in that area, so makes up for a little of the offset difference. This also means that more of the MPV rotor's mass is at the hub, where it doesn't absorb as much brake heat. Also, there are performance brake rotors available for the StarQuests. :)

MPV rotor; using a stud as a depth gauge for comparison:


StarQuest rotor; the same stud is showing 3 more exposed threads than the MPV rotor:


In case you need to know, the outside of the StarQuest hub needs to be ground down to fit inside of the MPV rotor. I tried to get a picture showing how much. Basically there is an outer chamfer on the flange, and you grind away until the chamfer is gone and the outer edge is square.
The MPV disc is far superior. Most Nissan calipers are designed for 28mm to 30mm thick disks. Only the 1990 NA Z32 caliper would suite the Starion disc as it was designed for a 26mm disc. Starion disc offset needs to be more accurately measured.

The reference to cutting down the outside of the Starion hub to fit the MPV disc was discussed in previous posts years ago and is posted on the first post of page 1 of this thread.

Another thing on the Starquest hubs that hasn't been addressed is the extra step in the hub face that locates the rotors. It is abnormally large, preventing off the shelf rotors from just slipping right on. This step needs to be ground/machined off to truly make the hub centerbore 67.1mm.
Here's a picture of a rear hub face to show the step:


I have more pics of the rear axle stubs, but I don't want to make this a more confusing post so I'll leave it for later.
Yes this was addressed on the first post on page 1 for the Starion hubs. The rear stubs would be the same. Either make the center hole of the disc larger or machine down the hub. If the the hub and stubs are to be machined down the proper method would be to machine them to the center hole diameter of the discs that are going to be used, not an arbitrary value such as 67.1. That profile is after all designed to hold a disc.

As I stated numerous times, most of this information is posted on the first thread on page 1.

What really interests me are the Z31 and Starion rear stub axles. Hard to find here in Canada. I would like to properly measure them up to our stock stubs and see what can be done. Are they worth the effort because the MS123 stubs fit perfect without modification?
 

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Discussion Starter #403
Yes I have read the entire thread and I must had get lost, and english is not my first language if you didn't noticed.

The guy who sold me the hubs had tell me that they we're from a 87 turbo and I was thinking everything should be OK.

Then NOT

And for the rear to do the 5bolt swap I'm going a completely different way so it'll be easier than trying to find something bolt ON.
Language barriers make it difficult. I did post on the first post on page 1 that '88 to '89 were the ones to use.

Looking forward to seeing what you are using the rear. 9" Ford solid rear end maybe?
 

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Discussion Starter #404
great info folks. For the later z31 hubs, what seal do you use? Is it still the MKII?
After some research I found an appropriate seal. I was going to order, test fit and post the information, but got side tracked. Now I can't find the information I had. I will look it up again and test fit it in the next few weeks. I will post it up.
 

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Great pics.

This won't give accurate results. I measured these parts and others years ago much more accurately. Please see the first post from page 1 of this thread.

The MPV disc is far superior. Most Nissan calipers are designed for 28mm to 30mm thick disks. Only the 1990 NA Z32 caliper would suite the Starion disc as it was designed for a 26mm disc. Starion disc offset needs to be more accurately measured.

The reference to cutting down the outside of the Starion hub to fit the MPV disc was discussed in previous posts years ago and is posted on the first post of page 1 of this thread.

Yes this was addressed on the first post on page 1 for the Starion hubs. The rear stubs would be the same. Either make the center hole of the disc larger or machine down the hub. If the the hub and stubs are to be machined down the proper method would be to machine them to the center hole diameter of the discs that are going to be used, not an arbitrary value such as 67.1. That profile is after all designed to hold a disc.

As I stated numerous times, most of this information is posted on the first thread on page 1.

What really interests me are the Z31 and Starion rear stub axles. Hard to find here in Canada. I would like to properly measure them up to our stock stubs and see what can be done. Are they worth the effort because the MS123 stubs fit perfect without modification?
You keep saying it is posted at the beginning of this thread, or that you said that years ago, etc. etc. I read the beginning of this thread before posting, and posted what I did because this kind of information was NOT posted. Pictures go a long way towards explaining things completely. I read about opening up the center hole of the MPV rotor, but I couldn't understand why until I got a set of front hubs. Why machine the part that wears and gets replaced instead of machining the part that stays with the car? How easy is it to visualize 1mm when you are used to everything being in inches? A mm seems so tiny reading about it that you'd think just filing or sanding would remove that much, until you have a visual comparison to understand what's involved. I figure with enough pics, comparisons and measurements everyone will be able to understand things more clearly and not keep asking the same questions.

I did not see any measurements comparing hub differences. I'm not trying to measure how far they'll stick out from the strut, but comparing them to each other. It's accurate enough to know that the wheel flange surface of an early Z31 hub is 5/16" farther away from the strut than the Starion hub's wheel flange. That's valuable information to have when someone posts their setup using a Starion hub and what kind of spacing and parts they used. Using their measurements, you can then choose a rotor and caliper and have a pretty good idea about how it will all fit together before actually assembling the parts.

Why does a couple of mm in rotor thickness matter when it comes to calipers? Starion rotors are 2-4mm thinner, big whoop. I can still use my Q45 calipers with them, even though the rotors are thinner. The only problem is when the brake pads are completely worn down, will the pistons pop out of the calipers? Who even lets their pads get that thin in the first place (who is an automotive enthusiast/mechanic)? Also with calipers floating on slide pins/bolts, rotor offset can be off a little bit and not be an issue. I think my measurement of rotor offset is a lot more accurate than any catalog pic with listed specs, as the specs don't show exactly where the measurement was taken from. Outside height? The thickness of the rotor where it mates with the hub is never specified, and it is a variable that needs to be specified when going by rotor height measurements taken from the outside. It's also nice to know that you may not need to get longer studs with some disks.

Like I said, I have all of these parts and no strut to test fit on. I figured posting pics of the parts being measured (so people can see the exact difference) would at least put the parts to use and possible help someone figure out what would work for them.

I have both kinds of Starion 5 lug rear stub axles, regular and SHP. The difference is the diameter of the spline area. Also, if the axle stubs work out, there is an aftermarket company that can/has made high strength chrome-moly axle stubs for drag racing and high power applications (but they're close to $1000 a pair). They're worth the effort for me because it will be a lot cheaper than trying to buy somewhat-rare parts from halfway around the world. Cheaper, because buying those stubs for a car that doesn't even run right now, to put on different wheels when I already have lots of wheels I could put on it, can only lead to divorce, and that is expensive! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #406 (Edited)
I originally posted the first post of this thread on "01-24-2004, 02:23 AM" and then updated it on "Last edited by rsdeo; 09-15-2009 at 01:55 PM.

Please see quoted text from the first post.

Update



Here is a list of the parts required to do the swap. It's quite easy and fits very well. Other parts can be used, but this is by far the easiest way to go. Only need to do a little machining you can get done anywhere.

The Starion hubs and Crown stubs are 5x114.3 with a center bore of 67.1. The Starion wheels are also 5x114.3 with a center bore of 67.1, the perfect fit. Once the the Starion (or Z31) hubs are mounted with the MPV disc the outside face is 8mm further out than the stock MK2. So the front Starion wheels 16x7 +18 or 16x8 +18 will fit as if they are 16x7 +10 or 16x8 +10 without spacers.

Front

You need the front hubs from a '88-'89 Z31 (5x114.3, center bore 66.1) or '87-'89 Starion (5x114.3, center bore 67.1). Both are floating disc design. The Starions are the best fit.

Purchase and machine the outside edge of the '87-.89 Starion hubs, remove ~1mm. The bearings and seals are the same as the MK2.

Purchase '91-'94 4x4 Mazda MPV discs. 276mmx28mm, 5x114.3. If you use the Starion hub you will need to open up the middle hole ~6mm.

Purchase '90-'96 Infiniti Q45 2 piston front calipers. The whole caliper, mounting bracket too. Rebuild, paint and mount.

Mount 16x7 +18 or 16x8 +18 Starion wheels.

Rear

Join Toymods and purchase rear '83-'85 MS123 Crown stub axles (5x114.3, center bore 67.1) from someone in Australia or New Zealand. Have them shipped Australian Post or New Zealand Post Sea Mail. Slower than Air Mail, but lots cheaper. Also shipping by Post saves on the huge brokerage fees and taxes courier companies such as UPS and Fed Ex charge. Canada Post only charges $5 plus 6% tax.

Install using MK2 rear stub flange, bearings and seals.

Redrill stock MK2 disc to 5x114.3

Mount 16x8 -10 or 16x9 +0 Starion wheels.


The parts are easily available and cheap. The only parts slightly hard to source are the rear '83-'85 MS123 Crown stub axles. You will need to get those from Toymods, they usually pop up for sale now and then.

Find parts here.

'73-'75 MS65 Crown front hubs will also work. They are 5x114.3 with a center bore of 67.1. This will require the MS65 front discs as well to use stock MK2 caliper. The offset for the front will not change from the stock MK2 offset. You will have to find these on Toymods.

The excellent JK BBK can be used once the hats are redrilled to 5 bolt with the MS65 hub and MS123 stub axle. The front kit will clear even the 16x7 +18 Starion wheel.

From the front.


From the rear.




There will be no issues with this kit front or rear no matter which Starion wheel you choose to use.

The Z31 and Starion hub will require a custom hat fabricated, but will give 8-10mm more spoke clearance depending on the design of the hat.

Z32 calipers will work with the MPV disc, but will not clear any of the Starion rims. Depending on which hub you use you will need a 16mm to 25 mm spacer/adapter. So if one chooses to go this route other wheels will need to be sourced with greater spoke clearance.

Crown Victoria 16x7 +6 wheels can be used. They are 5x114.3 and a center bore of 73mm. Jeep and other wheels too. All will have to be tested for various brake setups though

...
Yes there are other options, but I decided to post a quick update on the first post to the quickest way to convert to 5 bolt. All other information is posted throughout the thread, including technical drawings, pictures of installed parts, etc. Also this 5 bolt thread is working in conjunction with my Brake Conversion thread. It is all there, but up to those who wish to delve further into the thread. It's just too much information to update the first thread with.

I haven't posted anything concerning the Starion discs as they are hard to source here and didn't seem to have much if any advantage over the MPV disc. Yes easier install on the Starion front hub, but that '90 NA Z32 caliper which more suited to a narrow disc is hard to source.

As for inches or millimetres the disc dimensions and wheel center bores are referenced in millimetres. Anyone attempting to do this type of conversion should be comfortable with standard to metric conversion and vice versa.

Machining the center hole is the easiest option, machining the hub is the best way to go. Remember there is more than one brake upgrade involved here. 280mm, 296mm, 324mm disc and more. Lots of options and every disc has a different center hole unfortunately. So machine the hub when you finally decide what you are happy with. Anyone attempting to do this type of conversion should understand this.

Filing or sanding? Good luck trying to get a full and perfect circle. Machine parts properly, think balance issues and this after all work with your brakes which are safety items.

Discs wear with use! Caliper pistons have only so much travel and there is a point they will extend too far. Which may change the maximum allowable fulcrum point, this could cause flex. Or worse yet when the discs wear and narrow even more the pistons leaking fluid or pop right out of the caliper. Remember you need to look at new and worn disc widths for safety.

All the hub measurements are mentioned that are important. It is the bolt pattern, disc offset, disc center hole, but mostly the wheel offset change we are concerned with after all. I measured each wheel offset change on a spare hub bearings and all as it would run.

I looked for discs that would fit for each caliper that bolted directly to our struts. I don't care for any calipers that need an adapter to bolt on to our struts. I want full factory type of fit. If you want adapters go with the the JKBBK. It does work, is already made up and a nice kit.

Disc hat heights and and top hat thickness are discussed throughout the thread and with technical drawings posted where I could.

I tested everything on a spare strut. Hubs and brake swaps too. Pics are throughout the thread
 

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I've read this whole thread a couple of times, and took notes while reading. There is so much flip-flop and uncertainty on some parts fitting, it gets too confusing. I just want to help clear up some confusion and present some more options. I think there needs to be a new thread in the future listing the parts of each setup and what mods specifically need to be done. I see this thread as a place to share and try new ideas. Unfortunately, some people see some of the setups being tried and buy parts that turn out to be wrong. There seems to be a LOT of confusion on the Nissan hubs, because the years aren't posted much. Z31 and Z32, MX73, etc. terms are puzzling to the average guy, but an 86-88 Nissan 300ZX is well understood. Also, local availability can be an issue. I've NEVER seen a Z32 300z in a junkyard around here, and very rarely any 300z. That's why I'm trying to make a use for the parts I have, and create more options. It's all about finding cheap, available parts that can be easily modded at home. It gets too expensive for the average person otherwise.

Some of the mods don't require a high degree of precision. Hubs don't need to be perfectly circular, because they are so close to the center that they won't affect balance. They still need to be somewhat even, but not to the extreme of being spin-balanced (unless racing at high speeds). Wheels turn a lot slower than engines. Also, grinding away the majority of material may save machining time/cost.

I still have to disagree on calipers. There are ways to make things work, like shimming the pads to make up for wear. Washers can be used to center calipers. As long as the person understands how everything works, problems can be solved and adjustments made to make the parts work. With the age of these cars and parts becoming obsolete, these skills apply to more than just the brakes.

I'll keep doing my thing, posting my findings/pics, and answering people's questions. Maybe once I can verify some fitments and collect all the information in some of the threads, I can start a new thread about this with all of the information presented, pics, descriptions of mods needed, the whole shebang. For now, things are still in development.
 

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Discussion Starter #408 (Edited)
This has been an ongoing discussion since 2004. Over time it has grown. I bought many parts and did much research. Which I posted.

There are enough parts available out there to not worry about spacers for caliper mounting and the use of narrow discs. Using Narrow discs could be very dangerous. I did make shims to try out narrow discs on a previous test (early Z31 hub and PT Cruiser disc), but realised there are far better solutions that don't require anything. Why make extra parts when straight bolt on parts are available? Especially those with greater performance potential. You are just wasting your time and money also the time and money of others.

Those purchasing the wrong parts unfortunately did not follow instructions. Again I updated the first post with the easiest 5 bolt conversion swap in 2009. It couldn't be any easier, with production dates and model numbers. If that is too hard I suggest not doing the swap as it may be out of the persons technical range. For those with a greater technical background I suggest delving deeper into the thread.

If parts can not be ordered locally, they can be. I do regularly from the following site.

http://www.car-part.com

Very good prices and great service from the wreckers I dealt with.

If modifying parts use proper machine tools and practices.

I tested parts on a strut/spindle and rear swing arm with stub axles. Your pics were good, but please test fit properly before giving out information. Your results could be very misleading.

You are not really adding anything new to the discussion. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. New parts are always welcomed to add. So concentrate on those and lets move ahead and not discuss those I already fully tested and listed.

I suggest you slow down, read the very first post of this thread a few times again. Then read through the whole thread again. You must have skipped a lot.

SAFETY FIRST

Please no hack jobs. I'm trying to post quality swaps, that conform closely to factory installs.
 

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I never said the parts fit, I said it's a possibility. I've added the disclaimer a few times that I don't have a spare strut to test fit on. This is information for others to get ideas and do more research. I am NOT wasting people's time and money. If the correct information was posted in the first place, people wouldn't be buying the wrong parts or having to do unforeseen mods to make stuff fit. I'm adding pics to make up for the info that was left out. I'm not trying to disrespect you or your work, but try to look at something from all angles before you post.

I'm not rich, as are a lot of supra owners. Finding brake upgrade parts on a budget is a challenge. We go to pick and pull junkyards because they have the lowest prices of anyone. It doesn't make sense to find a different setup that uses parts from cars that are uncommon or too new, because they won't be in junkyards. You can buy new parts, but with the cost of all brand new parts, might as well get a legit BBK or not upgrade at all. I want the upgrade affordable, because there are too many people who swap in a turbo engine first and ignore the brakes. Yes, safety first.

I have brought up a new possibility with Starion rotors and early 300z hubs. Yes, rotors do get thinner as they wear. Calipers are designed to work with rotors that are way thinner than minimum specs. I've seen brake rotors in the junkyard worn down INTO the cooling vents, and the piston was still in the caliper. Not safe, but if they can handle that extreme, then a few mm thinner than stock is still within the safety margin. If not comfortable with that, there are always shims.

The specific thing that you posted that is misleading, is this:
"Purchase and machine the outside edge of the '87-.89 Starion hubs, remove ~1mm. The bearings and seals are the same as the MK2.

Purchase '91-'94 4x4 Mazda MPV discs. 276mmx28mm, 5x114.3. If you use the Starion hub you will need to open up the middle hole ~6mm"

The seal is not the same as the mk2; however the mk2 seal can be used in the Starion hubs. Also, the biggie, is why open up the center hole of the MPV rotors if the center hole is already bigger than the center of the hub? This should have been explained better, or at least a reference picture of a Starion hub to show why. The rotor-locating step is never mentioned or shown. Much better in the long run to have the hub machined instead of the rotor, for ease of future parts replacement.

This forum is for posting ideas, after all. This is an open forum, right? I'm trying to restrain myself here, for the good of everyone. I just want the correct and full information posted. Feel free to copy my pics into the first post if it will help describe a part of the swap.

We are lucky to have a forum in which we can edit our posts and post countless pics in a single post. It makes it so much easier to do write-ups and correct previous posts of misinformation. I wish the van forum I'm on was like this. I've learned not to take these liberties for granted.
 

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Discussion Starter #410
This is an ongoing project as parts were tested more were found to work. Yes it's still growing, but this is not for those who want to cut corners or save money. The update was a quick reference to the easiest upgrade. Believe it or not I still left things out because I needed a few part numbers.

One person purchases '87 Z31 hubs and can't use them with an MPV disc and it was my fault after I clearly stated '88 to '89 Z31 hubs? Think about it.

You are going to get caliper flex once the pistons extend past a certain point. Compromising any upgrade. Just because you saw something at a wreckers doesn't mean it worked well. All this work after all is to improve performance and not compromise peoples safety.

Braking converts the energy of the car moving to heat. A 28x276 disc will absorb and shed a lot more heat than one that is 24x276mm. Why would you want to compromise braking upgrades? Part of this conversion after all is upgrading the brakes also. Making shims cost money and why waste your time?

It's cheaper to modify the disc than hub and it leaves you a final choice to which brake set up you will finally use. Why? More to come in the future. 280mm, 296mm and 324mm caliper/disc upgrades are available now. Also people who are attempting this kind of swap can decide what they want to do. If you can't don't attempt the swap.

You wanted to cut the hub to 67.1mm. No disc fits that. Machine to the disc bore diameter of the final brake upgrade you choose. Once you have settled to that upgrade. You said 67.1mm and you question me?

Most people who choose to do the 5 bolt swap are not concerned with costs. Especially since there are so many affordable wheels in proper offsets available in 4x114.3 bolt pattern.

I've said this before.
In the end I really don't have the time to post everything in a hold a person hands instruction set. Why should I anyway? After all I spent countless hours researching, tracking down and buying parts, then finally test fitting. If a person can't read through a few pages at their leisure than they should move on.

I noticed you have been following this thread since something like '08 yet have not found anything new from what I already discovered. Your measuring technique is terrible and not accurate ate all. How your methods for machining parts are not good, so much for bearing life.

It's actually people like you who make just think, "...post nothing, let everyone do the work themselves.". Maybe I should from now on.
 

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So much for having a civilized, technical discussion to broaden the options we have. Stop putting words in my mouth and slandering my abilities. I'm trying to not openly attack you, but you do it to me? This has gone on long enough. I'll just respect the work that you've done, butt out and go my separate way, and start my own thread when I can prove that it works. It may take a while, since I'm on a budget. We can't all afford to buy new $100 rims and tires for them, new brake parts, etc. We obviously come from different ends of the spectrum of owners/enthusiasts here. Good day.
 

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Discussion Starter #413
It was civilized. Most people who have questions PM me and I answer them as best I can. No ones putting words in anyones mouth. You made comments and I replied. Your comments were unfounded. I didn't attack you, just rebuttal your comments with sound logic.

Some things should not be skimped on. Please think of your family first, be safe. Modify the parts properly if they need to be modified and use parts in conjunction with parts that match. Save your money and do it right the first time.

I can understand the budget, you are not the only one. Did you check the prices of the parts on the site I listed? Shipped, the parts can be had very cheap. Also all the wreckers I've dealt with had excellent service. Amazing.
 

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Z31 Hub Clarification

I just read through the whole thread. Thought maybe these pictures will help some people out. The only z31s that came with floating rotor front hubs were the mid 87-89 TURBOS. The 87-89 NAs had bolt on style pentagonal hubs. Here are a couple pics...

87-89 NA and 84-86 Turbo top, 87-89 Turbo bottom.


87-89 NA and 84-86 Turbo left, 87-89 Turbo middle.


Cheers
 

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This Is great info. That rsdeo is providing. @ the moment I am out of the celicasupra scene, but I was browsing for a Cressida mx73 & stumbled on this website http://www.serialnine.com/ this person is making/ modifies the rear hubs of our car with great success he is currently running this set up on a drifting 400whp mx73 & I don't think it's a bad deal for the rear hubs. hope this helps some our cs members.
 

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Not a very good deal at all since a decent machine shop cold drill your old ones and you could get the rest of the parts and still pay under half that.
 

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I registered at toymods in search for ms123 rear stubs and ms65 front hubs.
a seller offered me ms55 front hubs, saying they got the same bearing pattern as ma61 and same offset,too.
Anyone able to confirm if this is true?
 

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well, got my ms65 front hubs.








heres one compared to a stock ma61 hub. as you can see, the rotor mounting face sits 0.57in further back than the ma61 hub(measured with my dial caliper). so either the rotor bolt holes need fill welded on the front side and drilled through and tapped so they can be machined down 0.57in for the jk bbk rotor hats, or ill have to have new hats made to correct the offset of the actual rotor. ill speak with the machine shop and see which option is cheaper. hopefully the new hat option as my current hats would need to be redrilled for 5 lug even if the hubs are modded to the correct offset.


 

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^^How about using the early Nissan Z31 hubs instead? Rotor bolts to back of hub in a 100mm circle, and the mounting surface is a LOT closer to the original MK2 hubs than the MS65 hubs. They use the same bearings too, but the grease seal will need to be figured out. Might prove to be cheaper due to less machining needed, and you could still sell the MS65 hubs to make that $$ up.

The MS65 hubs look like a closer resemblence to the MX73 Cressida sedan front hubs. Those rotors have less "hat" protrusion because the hub has it built-in.

Edit: Due to the above picture NOT featuring a MK2 front hub, my previous statement is incorrect. The MS65 front hub does have close to the same offset for the rotor mounting surface on the rear of the hub as the MK2 front hub. The 4 lug hub on the right may be for a MX73 Cressida sedan, because the sedan rotors have a larger hat height than the MK2 rotors, so the hub rotor surface is thinner.
 
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