Toyota Celica Supra Forum banner

421 - 438 of 438 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,025 Posts
actually ive already been thinking of the z31 hubs with rear mounted rotor. ill have to pull a set to compare to the ma67 hubs. even then i either have to have new hats made, or get mine redrilled and either put a spacer between the hat and hub, or the caliper bracket and strut. honestly, id rather have a new hat made for this hub setup so i wont have to use any spacers. and since the ms65 hubs are so sought after on toymods, shouldnt be hard to unload them, even at the crazy prices they go for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,721 Posts
I recently mounted different front hubs on the two tone and took measurements (to see what different front brake/hub setups I could come up with). I found out the early Z31 hub's wheel mounting surface sits outward from the car 3/8" more than the stock MK2 hub, meaning a little more positive offset is needed to keep the wheel in the same place.

I also found a new front brake/hub 5 lug combo: early Z31 hub with outside pentagon ground down to a circle, Starion turbo front rotor and the early Infiniti Q45 dual piston front calipers. It makes the wheel poke out a little more than the MPV/Q45 setup, but it's another 5 lug option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
there is a member on toymods (crownman) that is parting out a ms123. he has quoted me around the $350-$400 mark for the rear hubs shipped. i figured id pass this info on to those who really wanna do the swap
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,025 Posts
ok, im a dumbass. the 4 lug hub i compared to my front 5 lug hubs, i have no idea what its for. was in the garage yesterday and found the hub i replaced on my 85 when i got wrecked and it has MUCH more material behind the hub face where the rotor bolts. went and glanced through the wheels on my 84 and this is obviously the correct mk2 hub to measure. from ub face the the rotor mount on the stock mk2 hub it is 1.274 inches. from the hub face to the rotor mounting face on the 5 lug hubs i have it is 1.348in, for a difference of 0.074in. a whopping washers thickness. and the rear hub diameter is the same on both. 3in. sooooo, looks like ill have no issues using these hubs. may have to use a washer to get the calipers centered, but no big deal.





 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
the set up ill be running

front

mx83 front strut casings
shorted steering arms http://www.xcessivemanufacturing.com/ONLINESTORE.html?cid=48&step=4&pid=267
mx83 t3 rca https://technotoytuning.com/toyota/mx83/roll-center-adjusters-mx83-cressida
stock mx83 LCA
z32 300zx 4 pots and rotors plus adapters stupid easy to make
http://jzxproject.com/images/caliper-spacer-mx83-z32.jpg
http://jzxproject.com/images/rotor-hub-ring-mx83-z32.jpg

rear

serialnine rear hubs (or getting my stocks redrilled at my friends machine shop he owes me)
http://serialnine.com/content/x7-chassis
stock rear brakes just redrilling the rotors for now ;)

sorry if i"m reposting some things just didn't feel like reading threw 30 pages
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,459 Posts
My buddy the machinist that occasionally does "1 of" parts for Boeing still hasn't moved his equipment into his new shop and it's been many months since his old building electrical system self destructed. So, now that I've got to find someplace else to do the mods, I have 2 questions. I have 89 Starion hubs and MPV 4WD rotors needing work and wondered what kind of business would have the equipment to do it. I don't recall ever seeing appropriate equipment in any typical automotive machine shop but I could be wrong. I also have rear stub axles to be redrilled and welded and would prefer having this done locally as well if possible. My second question is what would be reasonable to pay for these services?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,459 Posts
I'll answer my own post so anyone else wanting to know this info can find it here. I found a local machine and welding shop that could do what I needed except they refused to drill and reweld my stub axles for liability reasons. I checked with a couple of other local shops and they also refused the job for the same reason. I offered to sign any type of disclaimer they wanted that would release them from any liability such as is typical for race only or development / experimental pieces. No way by any of them. They all stated that if anything did fail and caused any type of accident and it was found that any modified parts failed and were at fault that they'd be held liable unless I stated and could prove that I did the work. No disclaimers are valid in these cases now and as such, if they don't feel what they're doing is safe, it doesn't get done.
Fortunately I scored a set of Crown stub axles for a somewhat reasonable price, actually not much more than Serial Nine wants for the work so this part was a wash.
For having the OD of the Starion hubs machined down to fit inside the MPV rotors and opening up the rotor center holes and matching their ID's to the shape of the hub was about $95. After test fitting everything, I chose to have 0.070 removed from the rotors inner hat surfaces to center them in the Q45 calipers. Washers just aren't the proper hardness for spacing a caliper from a strut and proper shims would have cost about the same. I also had them open up the center holes in a new set of rear rotors and drill 4 new holes in them for the 5 lug stub axles. The cost for these operations was about $145 for a total of about $240. Not cheap but not outrageous either.
I used ARP extended studs in the rear stub axles which were about $60 for the set. I've used their products since the 70's and know that they're worth the $ as I also wanted to add spacers in the rear for better wheel fitment and had a company in Reno make custom 20mm thick 67.1mm hub centric spacers for $85 delivered as now both front and rear hubs are 67.1mm OD vs. 60.1mm previously. This way, whatever wheels I choose can use identical hub centric rings for proper centering.
By the way, anyone wondering why I chose 20mm spacer thickness, here's why. After installing the ARP studs and checking their net length beyond the rotor surface, they were about 20mm longer than stock studs with typical aftermarket wheels using typical length closed acorn lugs. I could have also chosen a thicker spacer and used either open lug nuts or ET style lugs if the wheels permitted them. For anyone not familiar with these, originally they were used with specific ET wheels to give the proper thread length inside the lugs with those wheels and stock length studs. I'm quite sure that these particular wheels haven't been sold in years but the lugs are still useful for allowing a few extra threads inside the lugs with their mag style shank in addition to the acorn shape when otherwise safety would dictate the installation of longer studs. These are available with a few different shank lengths for various uses and can allow some wheels to be fit where otherwise they wouldn't or the cost of longer studs would be prohibitive. These don't fit with all wheel types and the shank must not contact the hub face otherwise the clamping pressure of them would be lost but they can help in some situations. Also, 20mm is well within what's safe with a hubcentric spacer, i.e. not one using nuts on the stock or otherwise studs and a separate set of studs and nuts for the wheels. One set of lugs to check torque on is enough for me!
Also, I checked with ARP and cutting their studs is OK but I chose not to for many reasons.
For anyone wondering, it's not absolutely required that the rotor be centered when initially installed with sliding calipers like it is with opposed piston fixed calipers but it's still probably the safest way. Some applications actually leave 1/3 of the clearance between the rotor and the outside pad with 2/3 between the inner pad and piston and this does make some sense due to how these work best but everything would have to be designed with this in mind otherwise centering is always best.
Also, the Q45 calipers are designed for a 28mm thick rotor which is exactly what the MPV rotors are. So in this area, they're not exactly the same as any of the Z31 or Z32 calipers as these are either for 26mm or 30mm thick rotors. This may be why some folks haven't needed any caliper spacers with their particular combination of hubs, rotors and calipers. From all the posts I read though, it was common for most setups to need somewhere between 0.040 and 0.115 caliper spacers to center the rotors or about 10mm for the Z32 calipers. I thought that test fitting my particular parts and then machining the rotors inner hat surface made more sense than using shims. Normally it would make the most sense to have any machining done to the part that doesn't wear so replacement parts won't need all the same machining every time they're replaced but in this case, should I choose to further upgrade and had had the hubs further modified instead, I'd likely need to replace them as well.
Yeah, I know that I could have done some of this myself and saved some $, but I wanted everything to be right on so it was worth it. I haven't had my camber brackets welded together or had them welded to my spare subframe just yet but when I do, I'll update this info to include those costs as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Ahhh, and it was so quiet in here.
In my relentless search for how to 5 lug my RA65, and with the Z31 hubs not so common as I had hoped, I found another itty bitty trinket of information. In my poking around for 5 lug conversions on Nissans like the 510 Bluebird which apparently uses the same Z31 5 lug swap, some Aussie guys mentioned using 80s Falcon front rotors, but in another thread I saw reference to XA Falcon hubs. That is, 72-73 model cars. Then I got to thinking, how much difference would Ford have had in its series hubs in the mid to late 60s and early 70s? Well, that's a bit of a mess. In the late 60s the Mustangs switched to bigger spindles which used A12/A13 bearings, but some folks have said you could use A2/A6 bearings in their place as the outer diameter is the same. Whether this is true, I can't say for sure, but in effect, this leads to my point: the 1965 Mustangs used the same hub for drums and discs, with A2/A6 bearings like our cars. There are aftermarket replacements available. If the bearing spacing is appropriate, and the effective mounting surface offset is reasonable, these may serve as an option for front 5 lug conversions. Furthermore, Wilwood makes several hubs in various sizes, one of which may work for us, but costs are obviously greater.
I haven't had a chance to see a Mustang hub in person. I hunted down a couple old Galaxies at my local wrecker, hoping they'd have a similar brake setup, alas they'd been converted to integrated hub drums.
My 2¢.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
790 Posts
Anybody ever figure out the oil seal for the early z31 pentagon hubs?


Anybody ever figure out the oil seal for the early z31 pentagon hubs?

Found this info in the early part of the thread, credit to Quicktoy's post. Anyone ever try these seals? I'll probably pick up both 18876 & 18921 to see if they are close enough to work.

Pre'87 Z31 hub oil seal. (444116) crosses to SKF 17909
444116 17909
Shaft Size 46.02/1.812 46.00/1.811
Hsg Bore 59.11/2.327 59.00/2.323
Seal OD 59.23/2.332 59.21/2.331
Seal Width 11.10/.437 12.00/.4724


MA6x oil seal specs. ('82-'86, 224820) crosses to 18865, 18962, 18452,
224820 18452 18962
Shaft Size 48.00/1.890 1.85 48.00/1.890
Hsg Bore 62.00/2.441 2.441 62.00/2.441
Seal OD 62.10/2.445 2.448 62.16/2.447
Seal Width 8.00/0.315 .354 8.00/0.315

The oil seal we need.
Shaft Size 48.00/1.890
Hsg Bore 59.11/2.327
Seal OD 59.23/2.332
Seal Width 11.10/0.437
My find
I found 18857 Difference 18536 Difference
Shaft Size 48.00/1.890 Ok 47.26/1.875 0.74/0.015 smaller
Hsg Bore 59.99/2.362 0.88/0.035 58.87/2.318 0.24/0.009 “
Seal OD 60.12/2.367 0.89/0.035 58.97/2.322 0.26/0.01 “
Seal Width 7.01/0.276 4.09/0.161 5.16/.203 5.95/0.234 “

The closest oil seal I found. (710356) crosses to SKF 18897
710356 Difference 18897
Shaft Size 48.00/1.890 Ok 48.00/1.89
Hsg Bore 60.00/2.362 0.89/0.035 60.00/2.362
Seal OD 60.20/2.370 0.97/0.038 60.35/2.376
Seal Width 9.00/0.354 2.1/0.083 7.01/.276


Z31 oil seal specs ('87-'89, 710126) crosses to 17691
710126 17691
Shaft Size 46.00/1.811 46.00/1.811
Hsg Bore 69.40/2.732 69.40/2.732
Seal OD 69.60/2.740 69.80/2.748
Seal Width 11.00/0.433 11.00/0.433

So what we need is
Shaft Size 48.00/1.890
Hsg Bore 69.40/2.732
Seal OD 69.60/2.740
Seal Width 11.00/0.433

The closest I found was (710255) crosses to SKF part 18876 & 18921
18876
Shaft Size 48.00/1.890
Hsg Bore 70.00/ 2.756
Seal OD 70.20/2.765
Seal Width 16.99/.669

18921
Shaft Size 48.00/ 1.890
Hsg Bore 70.00/2.756
Seal OD 70.14/2.761
Seal width 9.00/.035

My find
18998 Difference
Shaft Size 47.90/ 1.886 0.10/0.004
Hsg Bore 68.58/2.700 0.82/0.032
Seal OD 68.68/2.704 0.92/0.036
Seal width 25.4/1.00 sleeve? 14.4/0.567

In both cases, I figured that going slightly undersize on the shaft size would allow for smaller Seal OD, (so it would fit without having to use a BFH) and still may work with the shaft. I'm hoping there is some play with the seal lip.

Rats!
It didn't format the way I wanted it to. If anyone wants the info in Word format (with pics) let me know.

Paul
 

·
I <3 my supra
Joined
·
427 Posts
will the stock hub adapter that comes on an accord work? they are 5 lug hub adapters that bolt to 4 lug hubs. Bolt pattern is the same, dont know about inside diameter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
In case it has not been mentioned (haven't read through the entire thread). When using the starion hubs the dust cap that works well is the Dorman 13975.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
will the stock hub adapter that comes on an accord work? they are 5 lug hub adapters that bolt to 4 lug hubs. Bolt pattern is the same, dont know about inside diameter
Seems like this would be the simplest solution. Re-use one of the original holes with a longer stud and add 4 new ones. Then use 5x114.3mm wheels with +25mm offset.



Although a hub-centric design with centering-ring would be better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,721 Posts
Are those "stock" Honda Accord 4 to 5 lug adapters really stock, or are they aftermarket adapters? I've searched the internet for oem accord adapters and read through threads on honda forums, searched through junkyards and I still haven't found this "stock" adapter. It seems the Accords either came with 4 or 5 lugs, and if you wanted to convert you needed to swap out the entire hub assembly and trailing arms, not just remove an adapter. This makes me believe that there is NO stock hub adapter for those cars, only aftermarket ones, correct?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,898 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,039 Posts
So I finally got my hands on ms123 rears and Starion fronts. Anyone know how much the Starion front hubs change track width?

I'm already using z32 calipers and rotors up front so I have a small track width increase from that (~6mm iirc)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,315 Posts
Close to zero on my car. Mostly just the thickness of the rotor you use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,459 Posts
The Starion hubs take exactly the same bearings and seals as our OEM hubs. To me, that makes them essentially equivalent to OEM in that respect, but not necessarily the same as the Z32 stuff. As SilverMk2 stated above, basically the increase in track is due to changing to a rotor over hub setup and will depend on the thickness of the rotor hat you're using although the particular hubs can also be a factor.
I'm using the Starion hubs with MPV rotors and Q45 calipers along with the MS123 stub axles in the rear. To center the calipers over the rotors, I chose to have 0.070 removed from the inner hat surfaces and not shim the calipers. IIRC the track increase with this setup is approximately 8mm per side. So this might add a couple of silly millimeters per side compared to your current setup. But these are mass produced parts and some variation between even identical parts is possible.
I don't know all the specifics of every setup. But if you'll be using the same rotors, you may have to adjust your caliper mounting some for the Starion hubs. You might also be able to machine a little off the outer face of the Starion hubs instead.
I also swapped to Celica struts and steering arms which besides giving me quicker steering (which I love), essentially negates the increase in front track allowing me to use the same wheels all around.
One other nice thing is that both the MS123 stub axles and Starion hubs are 67.1mm so the same hub centric rings fit all around.
I did have 20mm thick hub centric spacers made for the rear but the particular tires I'm using don't allow them without some inner fender and flare massaging.
There might be some additional useful information and details in my post regarding all of this in the 5 lug thread if you're interested.
 
421 - 438 of 438 Posts
Top