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1982 Toyota Celica Supra P-Type
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Sorry I realize it's a lot so I've bolded things that I believe to be the most important.
  • Money is the big issue
  • Labour is not an issue
  • Time is not an issue
  • I normally daily this so reliability is a concern, but its a small town, commute is very short & all under 50 (31mph). I rarely take the car over 70 (43.4mph).

My Mechanical Experience:
I’ve never done power mods before but I’ve done plenty of restoration & parts replacement on my Jeep. Even pulled the pushrod inline 4 down to the cylinders to change a broken exhaust valve & yoinked a tranny to change the internal clutch slave cylinder. I won’t be doing this entirely alone. My dad & granddads like to tinker on cars & they know a lot more than me, but they mostly just have experience vintage American cars & the scene that comes along with them. I’ve been reading through a load of posts on this website and subsequently looking up everything but I don’t know all these crazy acronyms yet . I use the search bar to figure out the answers to my questions and i just get a bunch of posts like “help my turbo leak & wrongly boost” and the answers are like “your MFPHKS needs to CTSAOD28,” so i look up those letters and it takes me to some russian dating site. So basically I think CT26 is the turbo a lot of people like to use but that’s all I’ve figured out so far.

My Goals:
They told me “Cheap, fast, or reliable, pick any two.” I pick cheap & reliable.
I’ve heard about the 7m swaps for those who want big power; I don’t want to swap due to cost. If a swap would be better for cost let me know.
My father’s stock Foxbody Mustang is a rocket ship even with the tall gears and it’s rated for 205hp peak, so that’s my goal. Obviously a little more would be better but I want to keep the cost down & once I’m done I want to daily it. One day a while down the road I might want 300 in this chassis but knowing me I’ll probably want some other car by the time I have money for that. You guys won’t like this next question but I honestly don’t know what my budget will be; I would like to do it next summer when I get back home from uni. How much will it cost to do this, and then how much will it cost to do it right? I don’t need the super flat torque curve or anything, old school turbo lag would be more fun even. Please let me know if this is reasonable I’m really not an expert. It’s mostly for a fun project & learning experience.
Foxbody Mustang next to Toyota Celica Supra
Foxbody Mustang & Celica Supra parked in front of a shop door


The Car’s Background:
Early 82 Canadian P-Type. 170k km (105k miles) assuming everything's as it should be. I’ve heard 82 is a good year for a turbo. The car leaks quite a bit right now, I reckon it’s the rear main seal & I might drop the tranny to replace the seal. I’ve seen leaks before so it’s not an immediate concern. Should it be? The transmission also has problems staying in 5th. Is this a sign of something major that I should look at before any power mods? I don’t use fifth often anyways so it’s no biggie right now. The previous owner claims that the guy who sold it to him thought the clutch was going, and so it came with a clutch & pressure plate, but he replaced the clutch slave cylinder and & it seems fine now (honestly it does) so I’m not really concerned about that but I do have the parts. It’s a rustbucket but I’m not suprised considering the reputation of these cars, & the weather we get here. I’ve seen rust before, my Jeep was advertised as a "parts car" or a "beater swap candidate" before I restored it.

The Questions (I’m clueless):
Which drivetrain parts are most at risk? Will the engine be the first to have problems holding together under big power? The independent rear makes me concerned for those axles & CV joints. I’ve heard the W58 is not great under big power. My exhaust is just a homemade muffler delete by one of the previous owners, seems to be stock size. Do I need a bigger diameter? Do I need different pistons or rods? Injectors? Fuel pump? Air box? Should I be running premium gas?

More Questions (I’m young):
I see people on the internet boosting their 90s cars and they have to take it to a tuning shop who will hook it up to a computer and tune the software maps and curves etc., what would I have to do with a car this old? I’m in a small town like I said, I don’t even know the nearest dyno machine, I guess I can plug in a laptop. I’ve heard the 1982 model year was a bit different than 83+ with regards to electronics (vacuum vs electronic distributor for example).

TL;DR I know nothing; where to start researching?
Thanks in advance for any info or tips :D
 

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1983 Red Mk2 M/T 7MGTE Swap, Bone stock M/T Black Mk2 1984, 1989 Red Mk3 A/T Turbo
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Your in the perfect place! Take a browse and you'll see tons of threads of 5mgtes. From I remember it was around 6-10k to do it properly. In my opinion its better just to move to 7ms because theres more support but whatever floats your boat! These 2 threads have a lot of important info


read these:
 

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If money is a concern, not to be grandpa or anything, but modfying your only old rusty car under that constraint is problematic. I'd work to fix all the problems the car has before adding a bunch on power imo.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
If money is a concern, not to be grandpa or anything, but modfying your only old rusty car under that constraint is problematic. I'd work to fix all the problems the car has before adding a bunch on power imo.
Don’t worry it’s not my only one… I have multiple old rusty cars!
But more seriously, I have a body work project on the go and that’s why I didn’t really want to do a whole load of it on this car too, the previous owner patched some of the structural rust. I like the slightly tacky look of the car so that’s why I’m not super worried about getting all the paint shiny and the body panel metal replaced yet.
My thinking was that people might just tell me I should do a swap, so I didnt want to go around the engine tearing it apart and replacing a load of seals & gaskets if that was the case. It’s running fine now and the mileage is not super high from what I’ve heard of the 5m.
Thank you though I’ll fix the rear main leak then before adding power if I keep the engine. Is the transmissions issue something I should worry about while I’m in there?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Your in the perfect place! Take a browse and you'll see tons of threads of 5mgtes. From I remember it was around 6-10k to do it properly. In my opinion its better just to move to 7ms because theres more support but whatever floats your boat! These 2 threads have a lot of important info


read these:
Thank you! I’ve read thru that first thread but I’ll definitely take a look at the second one.
 

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If the car is in good shape the drivetrain shouldn't be an issue on a mild setup. The factory clutch will be kind of limited. You can use the later W58 clutches of later Mk3/Mk4 Supras for a mild upgrade that will get you a bit more. Or you can go with an aftermarket clutch for a bit more. Beyond that the factory LSD can be problematic if you're going to do clutch dumps, but a truetrac in the factory housing is the common fix. The 5th gear pop out isn't common on the W58. You're probably better off trying to find another used trans from somewhere.

As far as the engine you'll want to put a metal head gasket in any M series engine with a turbo if you want it to be reliable. Electronics wise you cannot tune pretty much any Toyota ECU. The old school way to do the 5M turbo is with an RRFPR and electronic timing retarder. These are kind of crude ways to get the job done. The best way to do it is to swap to a standalone ECU to something you can program and do whatever you want.

I'll say it a million times but the 2JZGE swap if you just have mild goals is far and away the better solution. Stock it makes 5M turbo power and can run for 100s of thousands of miles like it does in countless Lexus out there. If you do get greedy it will make as much power as your wallet can afford.
 
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1983 Red Mk2 M/T 7MGTE Swap, Bone stock M/T Black Mk2 1984, 1989 Red Mk3 A/T Turbo
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If the car is in good shape the drivetrain shouldn't be an issue on a mild setup. The factory clutch will be kind of limited. You can use the later W58 clutches of later Mk3/Mk4 Supras for a mild upgrade that will get you a bit more. Or you can go with an aftermarket clutch for a bit more. Beyond that the factory LSD can be problematic if you're going to do clutch dumps, but a truetrac in the factory housing is the common fix. The 5th gear pop out isn't common on the W58. You're probably better off trying to find another used trans from somewhere.

As far as the engine you'll want to put a metal head gasket in any M series engine with a turbo if you want it to be reliable. Electronics wise you cannot tune pretty much any Toyota ECU. The old school way to do the 5M turbo is with an RRFPR and electronic timing retarder. These are kind of crude ways to get the job done. The best way to do it is to swap to a standalone ECU to something you can program and do whatever you want.

I'll say it a million times but the 2JZGE swap if you just have mild goals is far and away the better solution. Stock it makes 5M turbo power and can run for 100s of thousands of miles like it does in countless Lexus out there. If you do get greedy it will make as much power as your wallet can afford.
Ive always wondered about the 2jge swaps, could you run an is300 one in there? I've heard that they are different from the other variants
 

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You can use any 2JZ in these cars, its just some are easier/better/cheaper than others.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
If the car is in good shape the drivetrain shouldn't be an issue on a mild setup. The factory clutch will be kind of limited. You can use the later W58 clutches of later Mk3/Mk4 Supras for a mild upgrade that will get you a bit more. Or you can go with an aftermarket clutch for a bit more. Beyond that the factory LSD can be problematic if you're going to do clutch dumps, but a truetrac in the factory housing is the common fix. The 5th gear pop out isn't common on the W58. You're probably better off trying to find another used trans from somewhere.

As far as the engine you'll want to put a metal head gasket in any M series engine with a turbo if you want it to be reliable. Electronics wise you cannot tune pretty much any Toyota ECU. The old school way to do the 5M turbo is with an RRFPR and electronic timing retarder. These are kind of crude ways to get the job done. The best way to do it is to swap to a standalone ECU to something you can program and do whatever you want.

I'll say it a million times but the 2JZGE swap if you just have mild goals is far and away the better solution. Stock it makes 5M turbo power and can run for 100s of thousands of miles like it does in countless Lexus out there. If you do get greedy it will make as much power as your wallet can afford.
Thanks for the reply,

When you say that the clutch will be kind of limited, what exactly does that mean: is the concern that the clutch will slip under high torque or that it will explode? I don't do big burnouts or clutch dumps, I like to think I'm pretty smooth with it as I've been daily driving stick my whole life. I usually heel-toe around town unless I'm coming to a full stop. I'll have to do more research on the 5th popout if you say it's not a known issue, because I don't want to replace the whole thing if I'm not even going to use 5th.

Metal head gasket sounds good. What is the pricing like on a standalone ECU for these cars & where can I find them? I'm not familiar with electronic timing retarders, but that doesn't sound like it will work with the vacuum-advanced distributor on my 82, or do I misunderstand how that works?

I could consider a swap but the intent for this project was more of a learning experience about power mods nothing too crazy (my previous dailys: 64hp, 106hp, 121hp). The non-turbo 2J may make more power but I would imagine I would need to be rebuilding it after purchase anyways? I guess like you say the advantage is that if I win the lottery I can make big power, but I don't plan on it anytime soon. Are 1Js also something to think about? What is the cost differential from your knowledge of the NA 2jz swap vs turbo 5m when factoring in reliability issues on the 5mgte? That's probably the main thing I'm looking at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for the reply,

When you say that the clutch will be kind of limited, what exactly does that mean: is the concern that the clutch will slip under high torque or that it will explode? I don't do big burnouts or clutch dumps, I like to think I'm pretty smooth with it as I've been daily driving stick my whole life. I usually heel-toe around town unless I'm coming to a full stop. I'll have to do more research on the 5th popout if you say it's not a known issue, because I don't want to replace the whole thing if I'm not even going to use 5th.

Metal head gasket sounds good. What is the pricing like on a standalone ECU for these cars & where can I find them? I'm not familiar with electronic timing retarders, but that doesn't sound like it will work with the vacuum-advanced distributor on my 82, or do I misunderstand how that works?

I could consider a swap but the intent for this project was more of a learning experience about power mods nothing too crazy (my previous dailys: 64hp, 106hp, 121hp). The non-turbo 2J may make more power but I would imagine I would need to be rebuilding it after purchase anyways? I guess like you say the advantage is that if I win the lottery I can make big power, but I don't plan on it anytime soon. Are 1Js also something to think about? What is the cost differential from your knowledge of the NA 2jz swap vs turbo 5m when factoring in reliability issues on the 5mgte? That's probably the main thing I'm looking at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
oops i meant to edit not reply to myself
 

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1/2JZ are becoming very expensive, but if you can find an old lexus with a 2J, it is probably good enough to drop in. But most will need oil pump and pan replaced to front sump setup. I've read numerous time that it is still the most reliable path to make in the 200 hp range.
The diff is the weakest driveline component as mentionned. Tranny, axels and d/s can easilly hold that, if the clutch is not dumped.
The diff gearing of 3.73 on the 82 helps you for 'not using 5th', but for later years with 4.30, it's another story. (why not using 5th?)
Standalone ECU, harness, (and fixed distributor) will still cost nearly 2K$ I think.
Which area are you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
1/2JZ are becoming very expensive, but if you can find an old lexus with a 2J, it is probably good enough to drop in. But most will need oil pump and pan replaced to front sump setup. I've read numerous time that it is still the most reliable path to make in the 200 hp range.
The diff is the weakest driveline component as mentionned. Tranny, axels and d/s can easilly hold that, if the clutch is not dumped.
The diff gearing of 3.73 on the 82 helps you for 'not using 5th', but for later years with 4.30, it's another story. (why not using 5th?)
Standalone ECU, harness, (and fixed distributor) will still cost nearly 2K$ I think.
Which area are you?
I've seen some 2JZ-GEs on Kijiji from time to time and and the occasional 1J, would you recommend against just buying a motor outside of a car like that & just dropping it in? I'd have to make sure it has all the little bits & doodads that need to come with it. I don't use 5th much as previously mentioned because I don't need it at the speeds I drive & because it pops out of 5th if you hit the gas just a little too much... The previous owner handily included a bungee cord to physically hold the shifter in gear but that seems a little sketchy for me and also seems like it will just severely damage the selector fork & the gears even further. All the other gears seem to be solid & work great, better than most manuals I've driven.
I'm from sk near regina.
 

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Standalone ECUs can run from $300 to $10k+ depending on what you buy and how much work you do yourself. Megasquirts tend to the be the value choice for the DIY group and then you go up to the more company supplied like AEMs, Haltechs, ECUmaster, ProEFIs, etc. Then way on the other extremes are the Motecs and Magneti Marellis used in pro motorsports. The beauty of this is that you can pretty much do anything. When your 82 5M ignitor dies good luck finding another 82 5M ignitor. With standalones you can usually run pretty much any ignitor.

The problem with the 5M is there are basically no aftermarket parts available for it. Then we're quickly getting to where there will be pretty much no maintenance kind of parts. We're almost at 35 years since the last 5M came off the assembly line. The only reason to really modify the 5M is you really like the 5M and the originality/old schoolness of it.

The metal head gasket just goggle "7mgte metal head gasket"

As far as cost on JZ swap what really adds cost is that you have to buy/make new motor mount brackets and you need the bellhousing/flywheel, and fork to mount the trans. The engine to use IMO is from a first gen GS300 so you get the right oil sump and the wiring is a little closer to a Mk2. As far as motor condition if it looked clean under the valve covers and didn't have 300k miles on it I'd feel pretty confident with a 2JZGE. They basically have no problems. About the only thing is the vibration balancer can separate over time, but its not a difficult thing to fix. When your done you'll have at least 190rwhp in a motor that can go a quarter million miles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Standalone ECUs can run from $300 to $10k+ depending on what you buy and how much work you do yourself. Megasquirts tend to the be the value choice for the DIY group and then you go up to the more company supplied like AEMs, Haltechs, ECUmaster, ProEFIs, etc. Then way on the other extremes are the Motecs and Magneti Marellis used in pro motorsports. The beauty of this is that you can pretty much do anything. When your 82 5M ignitor dies good luck finding another 82 5M ignitor. With standalones you can usually run pretty much any ignitor.

The problem with the 5M is there are basically no aftermarket parts available for it. Then we're quickly getting to where there will be pretty much no maintenance kind of parts. We're almost at 35 years since the last 5M came off the assembly line. The only reason to really modify the 5M is you really like the 5M and the originality/old schoolness of it.

The metal head gasket just goggle "7mgte metal head gasket"

As far as cost on JZ swap what really adds cost is that you have to buy/make new motor mount brackets and you need the bellhousing/flywheel, and fork to mount the trans. The engine to use IMO is from a first gen GS300 so you get the right oil sump and the wiring is a little closer to a Mk2. As far as motor condition if it looked clean under the valve covers and didn't have 300k miles on it I'd feel pretty confident with a 2JZGE. They basically have no problems. About the only thing is the vibration balancer can separate over time, but its not a difficult thing to fix. When your done you'll have at least 190rwhp in a motor that can go a quarter million miles.
Thanks for the numbers & name drops I’ll look into those companies for parts & see what I can see.

I like my 5M but it’s not that I like it because it says 5M on it, it’s just a great sounding i6 that makes good power in a little car. I’d be totally fine with the “ethics” of swapping in a newer engine, except (not to sound like grandpa but…) I CAN’T STAND the electronically controlled throttle bodies (at least with factory tunes). The first time I drove a modern car I thought something was genuinely broken, but it was literally a brand new car with 76km on it (not my car luckily). Now I’ve driven 4 or 5 new cars from some different automakers and I’ve determined that every new car seems to have this issue. It’s impossible to drive smoothly with that shit and it amazes me how people just drive around with 500ms delay in the gas pedal and just act like it’s normal.

Do you know where I can get things like the motor mounts or bell housing? Which cars did they come on or would I have to buy them aftermarket?
 

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Nothing wrong with electronic throttle if it's set up properly. Some of the early stuff on cheap putt putt cars wasn't great but newer engines or anything upmarket is great.
 

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I can tell you that when I step on gas in my 2002 M5, there is no lag/delay. The response is instaneous, and no turbo lag.

As far as your? about buying a 1/2J on kijiji, since you stated that price is an issue, it serms that both don't go well together theses days, as the asking prices don't make sense anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Nothing wrong with electronic throttle if it's set up properly. Some of the early stuff on cheap putt putt cars wasn't great but newer engines or anything upmarket is great.
I’ve heard that it can be tuned to respond near-instantly, but due to emissions regulations it is more beneficial to gradually open/close the throttle and so manufacturers tune it that way. I saw a video online where the guy had all these sensors from the car hooked up to his laptop and you can see a discreptancy between the pedal sensors and the throttle position and it’s alledgedly on purpose. He then uploaded his own tune and the pedal position stayed within 20ms of the throttle position upon smashing the gas to the floor at the highest speed he could.

It really wasn’t some early cheap putt putts cars: 2006 Jaguar XJR, 2013 Ford Escape, 2015 Ford Escape, 2018 Lexus LS500, 2019 Toyota Yaris stickshift, 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime. The RAV4 was by far the best because it was hybrid and the electric motor came in instantly. After driving the first one I couldn’t believe it (like i said i thought the first car was broken) so I took every opportunity I could to drive a newish car and I revved them in neutral to eliminate the transmission and they all do the same thing.

My dad thinks it’s normal but I spoke with my grandfather(s) and they get it too, but they said I need to try a carbeurated engine because it responds even faster and they’re right 😂 It feels like a carbeurated motor is predicting my input before i even move my body they’re so fast, and so I assume everyone younger than me will grow up with electric throttle and it will just be normal for them they won’t notice. But it’s just not my style I guess.

It also explains why everyone who steps in an electric car thinks the response is so instant, they’re not wrong, but there’s also more to the story.

If you have a different experience feel free to share, I’m very interested to hear if there really are new cars without this issue.
 

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You're going to be stuck in the past at some point since just about any car built past about 2000 has an electronic throttle body. Heck they're making car with fully electronic brakes and steering now as well. Some cars are a lot better than others, my Mazda and Subaru both have no rev hang. The ones you listed aren't exactly beacons of enthusiast cars either. You can usually tune it to do what you want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You're going to be stuck in the past at some point since just about any car built past about 2000 has an electronic throttle body. Heck they're making car with fully electronic brakes and steering now as well. Some cars are a lot better than others, my Mazda and Subaru both have no rev hang. The ones you listed aren't exactly beacons of enthusiast cars either. You can usually tune it to do what you want.
Yes I'm not saying that I'll never buy a car with any electronics on it, but don't really want to buy a modern gas/diesel car at this point in time. I think you're totally right that it's inevitable and very good in fact for these sorts of things to become electronic & computerized, and thus more efficient, but when I'm seeing these cars that are like 90% computerized systems crutching up this gas engine, and making a worse experience to drive, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me... In my opinion it's better for most cars to just be done with the combustion engine and throw an electric motor in there which has literally one moving part; this seems to be objectively better for most people's lives. I would certainly buy an electric car, I've driven a few and they're lovely I highly recommend! I even met this guy who converted his Porsche 944 to electric in his garage (coolant mixed with oil and screwed the motor).

All it is is that for me personally, right now, vintage cars are working great and I love them! I will happily switch to electric when the time comes, but when I look at these 2000s+ ICE cars all I see is the ugly transition period where we get the worst of both worlds.
 
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