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Discussion Starter #261
I made a walkaround video of the car, and with the supercharger being driven by the engine at the end. It'll be quieter at idle when i get the Recirc valve working.


Now winters drawing in, and daylights dimming every day (i hate winter) I'm just hitting the overtime at work to save up for Forged pistons and an engine overhaul. Should be getting an ECUMASTER black at the end of the month. Not sure if they will have a 84+ 5MGE base map
so thinking a 7MGE might be the nearest thing. Has anyone fitted this ecu to their car yet, and f so, how did you get on with set up?
 

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Discussion Starter #263
How did you wrap your dash and what material is it?
It's genuine black Alcantara. it was foam backed though - which is the wrong sort to use apparently - but i'm happy with it for my first ever attempt. I used high temperature carpet glue to stick it down. just have to wait for it to go off as it's contact adhesive , but when it's stuck - it's stuck!
 

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It's genuine black Alcantara. it was foam backed though - which is the wrong sort to use apparently - but i'm happy with it for my first ever attempt. I used high temperature carpet glue to stick it down. just have to wait for it to go off as it's contact adhesive , but when it's stuck - it's stuck!
They make stuff that's pre foamed? that's music to my ears, I just stripped my dash to plastic cause it was in such bad shape. Having an all-in-one solution would be great
 

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Discussion Starter #265
They make stuff that's pre foamed? that's music to my ears, I just stripped my dash to plastic cause it was in such bad shape. Having an all-in-one solution would be great
Yeah, the Stuff from germany is the best. Genuine Alcantara is UV resistant, so buying the fake stuff is a false economy. Think this is the one i bought
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-Alcantara-Stoff-SCHWARZ-Cover-mit-3mm-Schaumstoff-Rucken-145cm-breit/183608490125?hash=item2abfeb388d:g:EmUAAOSwnTdaQl8P
 

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Cool! Wow lots done since the last update. I recognize your MO there. Did the same thing myself at one point on Dean Funs SDR 85. A year fell of the calander with no updates so I made 2 10 minute long vidoes to cover everything we had done lol.

Hey. Yes, a couple peeps have converted 5ms to run with 7mge electronics in the past. The complications are around the distrubtor, as its on the opposite side of the motor on a 7m (though its not a deal breaker), and there is no ACIS system on a 5m. Thats more of an issue with the fuel map though as the stock ecu will radically switch up the mapping where the switch over point is (its a variable intake system, using a vacuum canister to effectively alter the intake manifold volume). However, if you're not going to run with some kind of PNP ecu on the stock harness (which most don't advise anyways), I would just make an all new harness and run whichever ECU floats your boat the most, they're pretty much all the same price now, unless you go with something like MS2.

If you stick to something more factory ecu based, you might want to consider upgrading to a later intake manifold or 6m one as you have the shitty idle air control valve. The later plunger ones are way better. MS2 DIYPNP can control those too.
 

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Discussion Starter #267 (Edited)
Cool! Wow lots done since the last update. I recognize your MO there. Did the same thing myself at one point on Dean Funs SDR 85. A year fell of the calander with no updates so I made 2 10 minute long vidoes to cover everything we had done lol.

Hey. Yes, a couple peeps have converted 5ms to run with 7mge electronics in the past. The complications are around the distrubtor, as its on the opposite side of the motor on a 7m (though its not a deal breaker), and there is no ACIS system on a 5m. Thats more of an issue with the fuel map though as the stock ecu will radically switch up the mapping where the switch over point is (its a variable intake system, using a vacuum canister to effectively alter the intake manifold volume). However, if you're not going to run with some kind of PNP ecu on the stock harness (which most don't advise anyways), I would just make an all new harness and run whichever ECU floats your boat the most, they're pretty much all the same price now, unless you go with something like MS2.

If you stick to something more factory ecu based, you might want to consider upgrading to a later intake manifold or 6m one as you have the shitty idle air control valve. The later plunger ones are way better. MS2 DIYPNP can control those too.
I'm working with the UK distributor of the ECUMASTER ecu's on getting the 5M running with their Black. I'm not even going to think about the Megasquirt because
A- i have no interest in building my own ECU from scratch. The import fee's alone are huge, so i won't save any money.

B- Nobody in the uk wants to map them, and That's probably the most important part in choosing an ECU

C- the wiring pinout on the UK cars is completely different to the Cars in the US.
My uk spec has no o2 sensor, Knock sensor, Cat or Smog recirc valves so for that reason, i just want to start with fresh 2019 ECU tech.
I already own the Bosch 4.9 LSU wideband with the AEM UEGO so
Once fitted with a Bosch Knock Sensor i'll be happy with the ECUMASTER Black.it has a 4 bar map sensor in it, so way over what i'll need. They don't have a 5MGE basemap available for them but are confident they can get it working quite easily.

I will be ditching the Dizzy and igniter and switch to Coil on plug coil packs.
All the turbo'd cars i can find have this set up and as i'll need a stronger spark, think this is the way to go. I need to make a mounting plate for them, and switch Hall effect sensors for the intake cam timing, but i work for a engineering company, so free raw materials and the machines to make parts are a huge bonus for me.
I work about 2 miles from Williams F1 and heaps of other race car engineering firms are around Oxfordshire so really Lucky if i have to outsource parts.

Thinking of going With a PMU with the wiring in the future, So that will substantially reduce the wiring, and eliminate the need for relays and fuses . Only problem for me is the cost, but seems like a great way to bring the car right up to date.

https://www.ecumaster.co.uk/new-page


I'm currently working all the hours God sends to buy Wiseco forged pistons and everything else.
Will keep the compression the same, but overbore the engine out to 83.5mm when it's at the machinist. It'll be good to start with freshly honed bores.
Also looking at getting Pauter Forged Con rods for it too. Pricey as hell, but can take 1500 bhp so Know they'll last whatever i can throw at it.
There are some H beam forged conrods made by Rambutan in China.(think these are who make the Eagle forgings)
Half the price of Pauter ones and made of the same 4340 Come with a years warranty And made to ISO 90001 but Not sure if i want to risk it as heard the ARP bolts in them might be fakes?!
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32796135881.html


I know people say about using the 7MGTE bottom ends but, and you might not believe this - There are barely any Left in the UK!
Most of the mk3's have either been Scrapped or Banger raced so i'm not even going to bother with paying silly money for 25 year old parts that have probably spun their bearings twice & have been reground.
Also the hassle of crank pulleys and moving everything i have worked out would destroy my chances of driving this car before i die of old age! Funnily enough, my friend who got me into Celica Supra's had a 7MGTE in his car, but cooked it and it got ripped out. Shame i didn't have the parts from it, but Ahh well. If i can keep the near oversquare bore and stroke of the 5MGE i'm be happy as prefer reviver engines.
 

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I don't really find my 6m any less revvy then a mildly worked over 5m, but man, do you ever notice the bottom end shove. Of course, my motor has had every breathing mod ever imagined done to it, plus an aluminum flywheel and fully balanced rotating assembly, so its not a fair apples to apples comparison.

That said, 7m bottom ends are disappearing for sure. No one is running 7ms anymore anywhere, JZs are too cheap and common. Also, 7m\6m bottoms are a little harder on rod bearings it seems. A lot of failures are from weak oil pumps and worn springs in the oil squirters and the 7m auxiliary oil cooler bypass, but the 5m uses the same rod bearing as the 6m/7m, and it probably should have been up sized when they stroked that bottom end (for the fourth time). I've got 10 years and 20,000kms of hard autox use on mine so far, but I still don't want to track it till I have a better oiling solution in place.

Your ECU points...

A Most people don't, and I certainly wouldn't myself. But you can buy the boards preassembled, and then all you have to do is wire up the connector to the board, which completely kills your C point as well.

B Correction, no Shops anywhere want to map them. MS is a home brew DIY solution for DIYers. Shops like to deal with companies with guaranteed tech support, warranties and dealer training programs and such. If you don't want to tune your car yourself, you shouldn't go with MS. It really is unfortunate that MS3 Pro is the same price as all the other major aftermarket ECUs now, MS should always be cheaper then the alternatives. But MS3 pro is a great choice if you are already familiar with MS and want something with a bigger community and open source software at least. I will end up running it wherever I can.

But redundant conversation since you have chosen the ECU Black already with a custom harness, this is a good decision! I would still ditch your early\EU style idle valve, they are problematic. The later plunger ones were used for decades afterwards, I still like them best. Finding a 6m intake can be challenging though, a later 5m one is EASY. I could probably get you one.
 

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Discussion Starter #269
I don't really find my 6m any less revvy then a mildly worked over 5m, but man, do you ever notice the bottom end shove. Of course, my motor has had every breathing mod ever imagined done to it, plus an aluminum flywheel and fully balanced rotating assembly, so its not a fair apples to apples comparison.

That said, 7m bottom ends are disappearing for sure. No one is running 7ms anymore anywhere, JZs are too cheap and common. Also, 7m\6m bottoms are a little harder on rod bearings it seems. A lot of failures are from weak oil pumps and worn springs in the oil squirters and the 7m auxiliary oil cooler bypass, but the 5m uses the same rod bearing as the 6m/7m, and it probably should have been up sized when they stroked that bottom end (for the fourth time). I've got 10 years and 20,000kms of hard autox use on mine so far, but I still don't want to track it till I have a better oiling solution in place.

Your ECU points...

A Most people don't, and I certainly wouldn't myself. But you can buy the boards preassembled, and then all you have to do is wire up the connector to the board, which completely kills your C point as well.

B Correction, no Shops anywhere want to map them. MS is a home brew DIY solution for DIYers. Shops like to deal with companies with guaranteed tech support, warranties and dealer training programs and such. If you don't want to tune your car yourself, you shouldn't go with MS. It really is unfortunate that MS3 Pro is the same price as all the other major aftermarket ECUs now, MS should always be cheaper then the alternatives. But MS3 pro is a great choice if you are already familiar with MS and want something with a bigger community and open source software at least. I will end up running it wherever I can.

But redundant conversation since you have chosen the ECU Black already with a custom harness, this is a good decision! I would still ditch your early\EU style idle valve, they are problematic. The later plunger ones were used for decades afterwards, I still like them best. Finding a 6m intake can be challenging though, a later 5m one is EASY. I could probably get you one.
Yeah, i don't want to tune the car myself. As exciting it would be to understand optimal Air fuel ratio's in map tables and solving problems
with engine electronics - I just don't feel like i have enough practical experience compared to a seasoned mapper with hours on the job.
And if you fuck it up - there is no come back for you. Just a ruined engine. So no money saved there!

As for the idle valve - i thought mine was the later version?!
It's the one that bolts to the head under the intake runners. My car is a 1984 5MGE no knock sensor, but the boss is tapped for it between 3&4 cyl.
I see there is a graphite looking swing flap down the air tube so guess the earlier one is plunger as seen them on pre 84 cars. It hasn't given me any issues to be fair. Not like the BMW e36 Bosch one i had, where i was cleaning it out every year. That car did burn a shitload of oil though!

This months shopping list is Wiseco forged pistons with an engine package from Flatlander. #21 engine package.
https://www.flatlander-ipp.nl/hpkits/pek-toyota.shtml

It's cheaper for me to order from them than Raptor Racing sadly. The import fee's from the US are brutal. Looking at getting 84mm with a 9-1 compression. The copper head gasket is no longer available so they will be supplying a Cometic. Can also swap the makes of bearings to whatever i want. Maybe ACL race?
The price has also gone up about 200 euro as well. Having the head skimmed when i have it apart. But i will need to get Forged conrods when i do that, so a lot more working overtime to do. It's going to be expensive as shit but it's something to aim for..
The 6m intake would be awesome actually, I would love to grab one of those, but super rare part i guess.
 

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6m Intake...


This I believe is the later 5m intake common in North America on 85/86s, and our 84 Manual is more or less the same.


Our 84 autos got the hold over intake manifold and TPS. The 84+ manifolds have D shaped runners too, might have a little more inner volume. I thought only our 82s had the shitty under manifold cold start idle valve though, seems like you have all the worst parts. Not that much of any of it made a huge difference in performance, it was the compression change mostly responsible for that in our 84+s.

The 6m Intake has a little divider in it to help separate the air flow that the 5m intakes don't have, otherwise its only differences is the 6mge letters cast on it and no provisions for EGR, its mostly just nice to have. But I would recommend the later manifolds just to be able to run the better idle valve and so you can run a later TB with a real TPS. The early square ones don't actually have a potentiameter in them to measure throttle position, they just open and close circuits as the TP moves off closed and hits max. You will probably have trouble running standalone with that TPS you have. Here is what all the later stuff looks like...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rfesu/26739403380/

There's more pics in the thread I borrowed it from...
https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/help-cleaning-fuel-injectors-5mge.1345665/

As I excited as I am to see another fellow enthusiast doing something cool with a 5m\6m, I have to do my due diligence and point out that even a bone stock non vvti 2jzge would be a far better starting point and would negate the need for aftermarket rods and such. If you grabbed a low miles jdm import, it would cost you about the same as the pricey rods you are about to buy and will hold all the horsepowers you could ever hope to throw at it with that super charger, and then another 300-400 on top of that. Plus a better head, better intake, better efi components, better parts selection and the same square bore to stroke ratio you like, but with more displacement.

But no, I don't regret building my 6mge, just a couple of the choices I made while building it (like running standard size rod and main bearings for instance, I should have gone with fitted ones). I did get a chance to drive a buddies 2jzge vvti swapped mk2 the other day and it felt almost the same as my car for power to weight, there is no arguing that the 2j is a better starting point. But I enjoyed the build and the special motor that I created, and I have a couple more tricks up my sleeve yet.
 

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But I would recommend the later manifolds just to be able to run the better idle valve and so you can run a later TB with a real TPS.
Going standalone with a drive by wire throttlebody is my goal, writes off idle control completely and gets you dead nuts accurate tps with 30 year newer parts to boot. I just need to find out how to solve the cruise control problem...
 

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Discussion Starter #272
6m Intake...


This I believe is the later 5m intake common in North America on 85/86s, and our 84 Manual is more or less the same.


Our 84 autos got the hold over intake manifold and TPS. The 84+ manifolds have D shaped runners too, might have a little more inner volume. I thought only our 82s had the shitty under manifold cold start idle valve though, seems like you have all the worst parts. Not that much of any of it made a huge difference in performance, it was the compression change mostly responsible for that in our 84+s.

The 6m Intake has a little divider in it to help separate the air flow that the 5m intakes don't have, otherwise its only differences is the 6mge letters cast on it and no provisions for EGR, its mostly just nice to have. But I would recommend the later manifolds just to be able to run the better idle valve and so you can run a later TB with a real TPS. The early square ones don't actually have a potentiameter in them to measure throttle position, they just open and close circuits as the TP moves off closed and hits max. You will probably have trouble running standalone with that TPS you have. Here is what all the later stuff looks like...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rfesu/26739403380/

There's more pics in the thread I borrowed it from...
https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/help-cleaning-fuel-injectors-5mge.1345665/

As I excited as I am to see another fellow enthusiast doing something cool with a 5m\6m, I have to do my due diligence and point out that even a bone stock non vvti 2jzge would be a far better starting point and would negate the need for aftermarket rods and such. If you grabbed a low miles jdm import, it would cost you about the same as the pricey rods you are about to buy and will hold all the horsepowers you could ever hope to throw at it with that super charger, and then another 300-400 on top of that. Plus a better head, better intake, better efi components, better parts selection and the same square bore to stroke ratio you like, but with more displacement.

But no, I don't regret building my 6mge, just a couple of the choices I made while building it (like running standard size rod and main bearings for instance, I should have gone with fitted ones). I did get a chance to drive a buddies 2jzge vvti swapped mk2 the other day and it felt almost the same as my car for power to weight, there is no arguing that the 2j is a better starting point. But I enjoyed the build and the special motor that I created, and I have a couple more tricks up my sleeve yet.
Ahh ok, well a later US spec Inlet manifold and throttle body might be
a solution to a problem i had not yet considered! Never realised the TPS was that basic in mine. I did a brief resistance check on it with a multimeter and was all in spec with the service manual limits, but never thought to question it's limitations. I would be interested in one if you could source me one.

And 2JZ - Wow, You have made me seriously question my sanity this weekend. 23JZGE's from Lexus GS300's are hugely plentiful and cheap in the UK. you can pick up a working engine with loom for around £600 on ebay. ($775 w. todays exchange rate)
I know they are a better base for tuning in all area's over a 5MGE On paper, it really is no contest. And for the money i'd spend on just conrods i could have a Low mileage jap import 2JZGTE Engine. I even rang my mate who had a 2JZGE for sale today but he got rid of it last friday!

Just, i dunno. When you see old cars with new engines in them, it's cool and you get loads of easy power, but when it's a really nice looking and sounding DOHC engine like the 5MGE is it kinda makes me sad. A bit like the M88 engine that came in the bmw M1 and M5/M6'S in the early 80's. You could put a Later spec S54 in from a E46 M3 and it's a lot better technically
but a part of it's being as gone i think.Same for AE86's with Beams engines in. Better, but a shame.
I just love the 5MGE wide angle Head design aesthetically, and now i have worked out the Supercharger mounting and bought a Trust exhaust header for it, Just seems like i've come so far. Kinda bumming me out thinking about what to do with Head over heart now - So cheers for that!!

I had a look at where the air con compressor mounts onto the 2JZGE and it's really similar to the 5MGE, but the Oil filter housing looks like it'd make my Supercharger idea redundant.
I had turbo cars before, and the easy power is AMAZING. But, I have to give it some more thought. The main thing with this is that i have done something quite unique in the UK to make myself happy.
One day in the future no MA61 will have a 5MGE left in it - All 2jz's And they will be the Norm.
I'm on the fence with it at the moment to be honest!
 

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Thats already happened to mk3 Supras lol

All generational Supra meets truly are the most boring car shows to go to now. Oh look, 3 different body styles and every single car has a JZ motor under the hood lol.

Yeah sorry, I love what your doing and agree with your opinions, but I thought it was worth pointing out. We are just at that point in the depreciation curve of Japanese cars right now, where the best ones they ever made are fully depreciated and supply is pretty much at peak, and prices at the bottom (its almost over actually, the early 2jzgtes are hard to find and expensive, and the later ones are starting to rise in value now).

I probably shouldn't mention that a 2jzge is like over 40lbs lighter then a 5m. That head design looks cool, but ugh it adds a lot of weight.

To be fair, you would be swapping from a 2.8l inline 6 DOHC 2valve per cylinder engine to a 3.0 DOHC 4valve per cylinder engine, with the exact same crank offsets and degrees, and same bore to stroke ratio. The style of your header design, catback material, cat type and muffler design will have a lot more to do with what your motor sounds like then the small differences in the 2 motors. Obviously if you went turbo thats another matter.

I think the Beams 3s sounds better then the 4ag IMO lol.

Make sure I'm right about your TPS, put your meter back on and see if there is a potentiameter in there that measures range from fully close to fully open. The square ones we got just had switches, its our round one that had the Pot in it. Let me know if you want a manifold setup, a buddy of mine might have a couple in a box still. If not, super easy to get here on the board. I've recycled or passed on many of them over the years sadly.

The 5m/6m is certainly a unique looking motor, no argument there. Super stout too. Again, 7mgte crank and rods is a cheap way to get bottom end safe to 450whp\torque.
 

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Going standalone with a drive by wire throttlebody is my goal, writes off idle control completely and gets you dead nuts accurate tps with 30 year newer parts to boot. I just need to find out how to solve the cruise control problem...
Agree, but there's a but. Knowing what you have, I'm guessing you are talking about the vvti gte DBW TB. That one has issues. People struggle with ETSCi error codes with that one alot, even on Aristos pre swap. When they work, they work great. But the throttle motor can wear out and the throttle cable sensor seems to not be very durable. I've heard people complaining about tuning them with aftermarket ECUs saying the resolution from that sensor isn't great on the top end. For Cruise, doesn't the ECU itself have inputs for the buttons from the cruise stalk? I don't think there is a separate standalone cruise computer like our cars and normal throttle cable TB cars have. I'd have to check the diagrams, but I assume the button inputs feed directly to the ecu for Cruise, as the Aristo's ecu handles the cruise operation. No idea if any of the aftermarket ECUs can replicate that. But at the end of the day, if your swapped motor has a ETSCi type TB setup on it, its relatively simple to modify the cable pickup on the TB to work with the factory cruise actuator. I did something similar on my 1uz TB conversion.
 

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Oh no i was talking a modern nice dbw tb, not an old clunky 2j one. Any old LS or whatever style that fits well is the way to go. Tempted to take a template for the 5m tb gasket to a junkyard and walk around the aisles and see what is close. I bet something is very similar. And yeah as for cruise control, that would be done in the standalone ECU itself, though if you run a GM TB i know there are add on computers that can control those tb's for you.
 

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i still think the 2jzge is the best motor for this old car. you still get the grunty I6 NA engine, modern technology, with a computer you can make a stout and not rung out motor. modern support and fuel system that isnt semi carb'd, and fuel mileage, glorious fuel mileage (but that may be a me thing as my car runs rich i think as i get bad mileage... the throttle always has this weird delay that needs me to push the gas to let the revs go down on idle, its weird) but you do what you gotta do. also, the 2jzge are cheap as chips and fit the w58 box with the right bell and its plug and play, no need for a bunch of new anything. i have the vvti to which i hope with the link will really open that motor up
 

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2jzge's aren't super known for their gas mileage actually. Of course most of the cars that came with them are heavy as fuck which is the main reason for that, but even the is300 for some reason gets really bad gas milage, and its not nearly as heavy as the Aristos\GS300s etc that also got the motor. I'm curious what kind of mileage Darrow is getting, he just got the is300 2jz running in his mk2 with factory electronics running happily.

Yeah, you're horrible A\F is your primary culprit. My 6mge running factory 5mge electronics with 7mge injectors and a piggy back that tunes it all for mid 12s A\F under full throttle actually gets fantastic gas milage, like high high 20s for mpg on the highway, and much better then a stock 5mge around town. It can eat fuel on the track of course, but that doesn't mean anything. A well tuned 2jzge is probably about the same as my setup I would expect.
 

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my car will have a link on it so my tuner will tune it for the good mileage and the powers. i havent done anything to my 5M to try and source the issue with how or why its getting bad mileage. all i do is the occasional sunday drive and track it. pretty well any car running a standalone can get all the benefits of gas mileage, power and drive ability.
 

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Could be the injectors are unbalanced. You will get crap milage if one or two injectors flows low, it will add more to all of them to hit stoich when cruising.
 

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Bad mileage:
When the engine is cold,it will run rich.Normal.

If the engine ECU "sees" a cold engine,it will run rich.Check the ECU temp sensor.
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/manual.aspx?Section=FI&P=72
When the O 2 goes "lazy" it fails to the rich side.
A fully warmed up engine gets better gas mileage.
10-16 MPG in town driving? 20 on the Interstate? Liters per kilometer....
Tires properly inflated?
4 wheel alignment in specs?
Air filter clean?
Timing at 10* BTDC? You can go to 12 *
Correct coolant thermostat?
Do the easy things first.
 
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