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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is anybody running a 6mgte without a intercooler. if so what are the results.

I do know the reasons why you would want one but saving money is also something I have to do and I don't want to wait until I have the money to buy an intercooler.

Thanks

Jason
 

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You ought to be able to find a stock 7MGTE one cheap, you can make the piping out of PVC. Detonation and meltdown would be a big risk without one.
 

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the old HKS turbo kits didn't come with an intercooler. several other factory turbo cars don't come with them. just don't over boost it.
 

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Has anyone ever *ping ping ping ping POW*

Jesus man, an intercooler is easily had at $50, ebay, junkyard, whatever you'd like. You are looking at $75 total if you use the stock mk3 IC and get crafty on the piping, be it some rad hoses from a big ol truck and pvc or whatnot...

I am going to have just over a grand into my 5mgte setup after its said and done, and $50 doesn't seem like that much more to me for that ammount of safety. Now, if you were running some bad-ass timing-control, maybe a 6btm from msd, I would say you could get away with it, but still, if you are able to toss $250 down on the ignition, pay the $75 for the IC.

--BillyM
who doesn't like to hear stories of 6m's blown to shi
 

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not worth it. you could do a water injection, but even a home made water injection will be as much or more then a stock mkiii i/c. dont risk it. cause once you boost, youll want more just like every crackhead wants more crack. its an adiction.
william
 

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M series engines are prone to the dreaded BHG (we all know that), and the number one cause of a BHG in boosted applications is detonation. High-compression 6M + non-intercooled turbo + archaic engine management = detonation city. For the sake or reliability, get a decent intercooler - as mentioned above, it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for all the thoughts guys, you have conviced me not to do it without a intercooler.

I will have my 6m in about 2 weeks can I just torque the head bolts down alittle more so I don't have to worry so much about a BHG? if so what can I go to on the stock bolts?

Jason
 

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i'm going to run my 6m-gte without an intercooler for a while, but i will have decent fuel and timing control, and i'm not going to run more than stock boost for a while. my reason is that the stock 7m intercooler that i have is worth 50-100 bucks, and is supposedly not very good and has a ridiculously high pressure drop-- i've heard people tell stories about someone they know who ran faster at the *track* with no intercooler at all at stock boost. ghetto piping would just make it worse.

the expense and work involved in piping and the money i can get for the 7m intercooler makes me want to save up for a better intercooler and do the piping later.

i don't think this is ideal, but i am not *too* worried. there have been many oem turbo set ups running very reasonable amounts of boost with no intercooler, they were just tuned for it. 6-8psi is pretty low boost. charge temps aren't *ridiculously* high. i would like to set up an alc/water injection, which actually can be done rather crudely for maybe a bit more than $100 (shurflo pump from northerntool.com for $60, $10 nozzle, $20 pressure switch, relays, piping, check valve).

also, when you have a 2psi pressure drop at 8psi of pressure, to get 8psi in the manifold, your intercooler's effective efficiency is not very high. no one knows for sure what the pressure drop of the stock 7m ic is, but rumor has it that cartech tested a 2psi drop at 7psi:
http://socalsupras.com/tuning/mk3intercooler.htm

in any case, i don't particularly recommend it unless you are confident in your fuel and timing control, in which case i dont think it's nearly as bad as people make it out to be. i can tell you with more certainty in a month.

shiva
 

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Thats dumb. all IMO ofcourse. We just had this big discussion of why this guy shouldnot do it, and you come in with the same thing...

I doubt we will all type it over again, but I personally stick to my views. And by the way, the pressure drop on the stocker intercoolers isn't that bad from what I've heard.

--BillyM
 

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While the stock IC at higher pressure levels (read: pressure levels above 15 PSI) does have a good amount of loss, as well as crap for effieicency at those levels, in the range that it was designed to be used (7 to 9 psi), it works decently. Personally, I wouldn't run boost without an I/C... very quick way to spike your EGT's and melt something that is otherwise happy being un-melted :wink:
 

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Ghetto piping? I don't think my air knows the difference between PVC and stainless steel. PVC has been proven to work. Mine will be SS, but the air won't care.
 

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well, the problem with pvc pipe is, after awhilei t will distort a bit from the heat, espeacially if used from the turbo to i/c. i went this route as a quick fix awhile back. it worked great for a lil over a month, then the connections blew apart. so, i redid the pipe and put som screws in to hel hold them together, well, it lasted about a week longer and the same results. this was at 8psi. i ended up just buying 2 2.25in 45deg bends and welding them up apropriatly, then i started popping the connections. better hose clamps fixed that.
william
 

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<<
Thats dumb. all IMO ofcourse. We just had this big discussion of why this guy shouldnot do it, and you come in with the same thing...

I doubt we will all type it over again, but I personally stick to my views. And by the way, the pressure drop on the stocker intercoolers isn't that bad from what I've heard.

--BillyM
>>

i don't think i said the same thing, and i don't think what i said was particularly dumb. i did not think it was appropriate to recommend something so controversial that i have yet to try and don't know all the facts about. but i did say that if you felt you had good control over fuel and timing that i believe it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, citing the not-ridiculously-high charge temps, the fact that reliable, an OEM setup running higher boost has been done without an intercooler, and the admittedly debatable argument over the _static_ pressure drop of the 7m intercooler. that was what i wanted to be the content of my post.

i thought they were reasonable points to add the discussion, and not a useless recap, as there might be more of a purpose to these posts than just giving the guy a straight answer.

there are ways to limit your EGTs to more than acceptable levels in the absence of an intercooler; running low boost, setting timing and fuel mixture properly, and using a cheap water injection set up i think are good ways to do this.

about the pvc, that's not what i meant by ghetto piping, sorry about that. i was referring to couplers and rubber bends that expand like crazy under pressure, sometimes enough to leak even with clamps, pipes with rough surfaces, piping with many abrupt changes in diameter, etc. i think this sort of piping would be something to avoid but in some cases it's hard or expensive to do so. it's funyn reading posts about PVC and the stock intercooler on supraforums. it's an oddball mix of arguments some ranging from "i would never use something cheap on my supra" and "if it's so bad how did i pull 420rwhp on a dyno with it" to worries about heatsoaking, melting and releasing toxic fumes, etc. probably a good idea to search there before making a decision.

anyways, sorry if i was just being repetitive, but there is a flip side to this intercooler debate and i thought it might be helpful to outline a few points of it whether i wanted to recommend it to someone or not.

shiva
 

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shiva said:
there are ways to limit your EGTs to more than acceptable levels in the absence of an intercooler; running low boost, setting timing and fuel mixture properly, and using a cheap water injection set up i think are good ways to do this.
You could do all that, but surely it's much easier just to install a good intercooler... not to mention more effective?

I dunno, it just seems like you're going to great lengths to find a way to run without an intercooler, but it's not like installing an intercooler is a difficult thing to do - especially in a Mk2 where there's TONS of room for a big FMIC!
 

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there are massive gains to be had with a good intercooler especially when running higher boost, fo' sho'.

but hooking the ct26 up with no intercooler costs practically nothing, and that piping really adds up! piping + ic = about $200, at least with my resources-- $20/bend with shipping, and i think i would need 4-6 bends, and then it would cost a fair amount for couplers and to get them welded up, since i unfortunately can't do that myself.

i decided to save up for an intercooler that is better than the 7m's and try to do a nice piping job then, partly due to my not wanting to spend $200 on the intercooler set up quite yet. it might be a silly decision; perhaps it will only gain me 10hp when i do it with a better unit than the 7ms at the boost i will be running, but hey. perhpas the power gains will be greater than 10hp, and perhaps it will increase if i ever use my car in a situation where heat soak might become an issue.

perhaps others might find this to be a reasonable route as well-- to save time, money (if they need it right away... often a necessity when undergoing a project), and effort if they feel the 7m ic is inadequate. *shrug* just another route to take, and at this point i have my doubts about how horridly unsafe it is claimed to be

aaanyway, anyone know of good, cheap intercoolers that are a step up from the 7ms? it's very hard to find good information on them. i did read a post of a dodge daytona/omni owner testing IC efficiency and pressure drop at 18psi with a porsche 944 intercooler on his omni-- the porsche cooler he found to be 94% efficient with < 1psi drop at 18psi. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group...&done=/group/daytonatech/message/768?source=1
thats the source, the original message isnt there...

anyone know more about the porsche ic? it's 5" thick, and very short which might be nice in terms of allowing flow to the rad though it might be a pain to install. and they arent all that expensive, either.

there is also the npr route... then there are all those ones on ebay... the griffin core/hks end tanks from road race engineering (~$550 total). then there is the garrett kit from aaron, man do i wish i could run that.

shiva
 

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Well since no one mentioned it.... Damon (MK1w/7MGTE) has been running without an intercooler for a couple years. I have seen his car dyno at 250-75hp. I was kind of shocked when I first saw it but his setup works very well. I have no idea on what his timing/fuel setup is though. I know it's not a 6M but it goes to show that you can run without an intercooler and still be reliable (he's been up to the Toronto area several times with the car, coming from PA). Also he races the car quite a bit and I believe he's running high 12s now.
 

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If your talking about Damon's White Mk III... Yes, he runs that without an I/C, and yes, he makes some decent numbers with out one... If your talking about his Mk I, last time I saw it, it had a stock Mk III I/C. But your also talking about a 7M. That motor has one big advantage over the 5 and 6M... the oil squirters. Those by themselves are said to (this is someone elses number.. not mine.. I think it sounds high, but I'll use it just for arguements sake) drop EGT's almost 100 degree's.

Shiva, you do bring up some good point of ways to lower EGT's, but Norbie hit that nail right on the head. Those are all great ways to control egt's... but without an IC, all those things need to be spot on perfect... which really, without going with a full stand alone fuel system, is really hard to do with a mk II... Now, if I remember correctly, your going Megasquirt/MegaJolt, right? Which would make it alot easier for you to do that than the rest of us... ;)
 

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IC's

In case you'd like more info on the stock IC and piping, check out this link.... http://www.jblmk3.com/id1_tests_for_pvc_intercooler_hardpipes.htm
In fact, check out that whole site at http://www.jblmk3.com/ since there is a lot of info there.

More info here with tips on buying used/junkyard intercoolers and comparisons of several commonly found ones...
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0901

Another supplier of new IC's here
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/intercoolers.htm

That's it for my bookmarks. 8)
 
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