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The only styling thing that really irks me is the "Ooops, we forgot we needed a nav screen. Let's just glue it on the top of the dash pad like an aftermarket gauge pod out of the Summit Catalog." Probably stuck on with Velcro.
 

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The only styling thing that really irks me is the "Ooops, we forgot we needed a nav screen. Let's just glue it on the top of the dash pad like an aftermarket gauge pod out of the Summit Catalog." Probably stuck on with Velcro.
Toyota loses.

(In a Crocodile Dundee accent) Whot, you call that a screen? Now THIS is a screen!


Not only is there a 48" monitor on the dash, there is one on the steering wheel of the Byton M-Byte.

Welcome to the world of monkey see, monkey do automotive design.
See a trend; hop on it and beat it to death!

Is there no modern designer who has the vision to go his own way? Or more likely the twenty-something MBAs fresh out of University who run the car companies I guess.

Sigh
 

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I am not a Fan of the new supra, but there is one little detail that I like: The fuel and temp gauge look like the typical 80s digital dash bars that are in the MK2 and all the other toyotas of that era.

Not that i dont like the car itself, but it is neither close to what a supra was until that generation, a Gran Tourismo, nor does it have a Toyota soul itself. Inside they did not even try to hide that its just a rebadged BMW.

And that the Chief engineer said that you should by the four cilinder variant If you intend to swap for a 2JZ, that tells everything about the engine. If he was satisfied with the engine then he would have said trust me you dont want to swap because the new engine has the same potential as the 2J, dont even think about swapping.

Its If somebody in the 90s would have said If you want to get Power Out of the Brand new mkiv then get the non turbo Version and put a 7m in...

But the fuel and temp gauges are cool ? ?
 

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Comparing it to contemporary cars, I think it's quite nice.
The interior seating and materials are quite nice.

However...

Font Rectangle Paper product

At least give the illusion that it's a Toyota!
 

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...And that the Chief engineer said that you should by the four cilinder variant If you intend to swap for a 2JZ, that tells everything about the engine. If he was satisfied with the engine then he would have said trust me you dont want to swap because the new engine has the same potential as the 2J, dont even think about swapping....
I can't even imagine 2J swapping one of these cars. The BRZ/FR-S you need to use an expensive Motec ECU to get like 80% of the electronics in the car to work right. I've got to imagine the German electronics in this car are even worse. By the time you add it up you can probably buy a really nice low mileage MkIV for less and have a car that won't depreciate.

Frankly I think the no manual transmission is just a gigantic middle finger from Toyota. I have to imagine BMW has pretty much most of the parts needed off the shelf to do it. I could kind of understand had to spend a 100's of millions to do a new transmission, but that isn't the case here.

I really wish Toyota just went to BMW and said sell us a 400hp I6 with a transmission attached to it and Toyota built a car around it. This isn't unprecedented in the industry. I think they'd get a lot more respect for it that way. A Toyota styled BMW is just phoning in the effort. I think these partnerships kind of suck for Toyota. The other company is never going to allow them to build a car that out performs their own car. Subaru does this with the FR-S/86. The car will never have more power since it would be faster and cheaper than the WRX/STI. You can see it in this car with the down rated engine compared to the Z4 and even the M cars.
 

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I was just thinking we're starting to sound like some of the stodgy old baby boomer Corvette owners I've encountered in the NCRS: "The last real Corvette was made in 1967. Everything since is just a waste of good fiberglass." Not everyone is always going to be happy with each next generation of a car design. I remember as a teen being sadly dejected when the C4 came out as it no longer had that sexy shape like a woman's figure. They always lose some customers who won't trade up to the next model but they hope they'll gain some new customers who don't have any history with the line. In this case, its been a couple of decades almost since they've produced anything called the Supra. I'm sure they're not worried about losing mk4 lease-returns at this point and they damn sure aren't worried about us mk2 owners. Of course every Spring I see a few of those geriatric C2 owners at the car show with a brand new C7. Automatic transmissions, power everything and a WARRANTY start looking pretty good after a hip or knee replacement surgery. ;)
 

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Phil, well said Sir!!

I think I would own a MK1 and a MK4 as well if I had the $$, although I did test drive a few 92s with the sport roof option...

Same for old fireman; which I am; fire engines now have auto trans, power windows, computers nowadays...and riding tailboard new kids look at you if your insane...

Anyway SUPRA Mk5?? #1 just sold for 2.1 MILLION DOLLARS on Barrett Jackson TONIGHT
 

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Thats a good point and it happened more than once...

Think of the Nissan guys when the GTR was unveiled. Suddenly it was not a Skyline anymore and became this huge heavy car that was a lot slower. Everyone was offended...

I am sure the actual variant was not what Toyota prefered in the beginning but they have surely checked all the possible options...
Lets thank them that they chose BMW and not any other company.

In the end it was a simple financial decision,thats a fact. There will soon be hybrid variants of the FWD BMWs and Minis i believe,and those will be Toyota engines. Thats what BMW will get for sharing the Z4 platform.

I am not really happy about how much BMW you see in the supra, being such a lightweight and small car its pretty quick around corner i believe. So from the concept its exactly what the Nissan guys wanted to have instead of what they got.

And the next Point ist: It IS great for engine swaps. Look at the BMW lineup. You can put in a V10 from the old M5 without too much effort to get it running with the electronics. In Norway i have seen plenty of M3 and M4 with that engine supercharged with more than 700rwhp. Its not a 2J nur a valid option.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Well now that you all have vented, I'll clear up a few things and offer my personal opinions on the car. I've been hanging out on the mk5 forums for the last year, mostly just to enjoy the ride. It may not be a real Supra, but I was too young to follow the mk4's development (not that they had the internet like we do now) so it has been cool to at least follow along with a community the development and big (HORRENDOUSLY SLOW) reveal of the latest version of my car.

So the no manual thing. First off, the car has the ZF8 box that is in every Hi-Po car on the market today (Challenger, Vette, etc) and frankly, its a really good auto box and people love it. Its the reason GM hasn't bothered to develop a DSG\Twin Clutch unit for the vette yet, this slushbox is pretty much as good as one of those now (8spd, paddle shifter, shifts as fast as a DSG, can hold gears to redline, super intelligent shift patterns). And for these very reasons, is why, BMW, not Toyota, decided not to develop a manual option for the next Z4... which of course meant the Supra had to follow suit. That said, the blow back on this decision has been GIGANTIC, it was a huge mistake to not launch with a manual. But relax, the Chief Engineer has already stated in interviews that the parts have been developed and its coming. The marketing people just don't want to sabotage the first year sales so you aren't hearing about it much right now. It should be a 2021 model year option, 2022 at worst.

The motor. Toyota has said that the reason they did this is the Supra enthusiasts they talked to said there was no point in developing a new Supra unless it didn't have a turbo inline 6 under the hood, so at the time, BMW was the only manufacturer with one still in the lineup. That said, who in the hell are these enthusiasts they supposedly talked to? According to Toyota these same people didn't care if the car had a manual option or not. The sentiment on the mk5 board is almost universal that we all would have preferred a turbo Toyota V6 to a BMW Inline 6, and lo and behold, the new LS500 just came out and it has a brand new Toyota Twin Turbo v6 under the hood (makes 500hp too).

That said, this new b58 Inline 6 motor is admittedly... really good. The architecture is a little over 2 years old now, these motors have been on the road for awhile now, and the new Supra and Z4 are coming with a version with more revisions and improvements. People are bellyaching about the paltry 335hp the Supra is getting over here, but they seem to be missing the 365lbs/ft rating. This motor is mechanically the same as the 382hp version the top end Z4 is getting, it shouldn't be more then a tune to attain that difference, maybe a change in the exhausts system too. This motor makes at least 50llbs/ft improvement on a stock 2jzgte at pretty much every rpm and has the same redline. Not only that, tuners have already cracked this ecu and are making amazing gains with just software changes. It already has a decent single turbo with a decent downpipe design and an air to water intercooler, so just software changes are enough to get into the 450whp range and so far reliability seems pretty good. But don't expect 2jz levels of durability and power potential with stock internals.

About the lack of rear seats many moan about, lets be honest, the mk3 was the last Supra with usable rear seats. That parcel shelf behind the mk4's rear seats just took up space and added weight, good riddance. And the 2000gt was a 2 seater too, so no tears from me on that one.

Overall, I personally am super conflicted about this car. I can think of at least 3 other development scenarios Toyota could have gone with to share development of a new Supra to make it financially feasible in this day and age that I would have preferred. But that said, it sure is nice that this car has a 3.0l Turbo Inline 6 in it, and BWM is quite good at building cars that handle well, motors that go like stink, and makes nice interiors. There are certainly worse partners they could have buddied up with. I also really like the direction that they went with the car as a whole. Essentially they are delivering a slightly more affordable, modern reproduction of the mk4, that is smaller, lighter, has a better weight balance and has much better track manners. The styling I am torn on. The grey and white car look pretty good overall in those pics I posted, and pretty much everyone loved the FT1 concept this was based on. Anyone who has been around long enough to see a concept turn into a production car shouldn't be too shocked by the compromises that were inflicted on the production car when they had to force that concept onto a Z4 platform. The bean counters certainly deserve some blame on that one, but frankly so do the designers of the FT1 for making something so damned unrealistic and extreme. Clear engine covers, mid engined car side ducts, vents everywhere, 1 inches of ground clearance, frankly they set us all up for disappointment. Anyways, I like a lot of elements of the final design and if you can just manage to put the image of the FT1 out of your head, its not that bad looking of a car. That said, I'm still undecided about it, I want to wait and see it in person before I fully decide how I feel about it.

But finally, would I get one myself? Nah, I have no need for such a thing in my life, I have all my Supras I want already. I'm more of a build it then buy it kinda guy anyways, and I really can't get over the whole 95% BMW thing. That said, if something changed in my life where I would consider a brand new car, and I really like its look in person, they bring out a manual, and in the following years the car proves to be reliable and evolves into a bit of a modern classic with a huge aftermarket and amazing reviews, I could be tempted closer to the end of production.
 

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The C7 corvette definitely doesn't use the ZF box. It has a GM 8L90, which has a whole bunch of its own problems. The C8 is probably getting the new Tremec DSG box in the GT500, but I guess we'll find out this year when they unveil it. It may just end up with the 10L90 because of politics of using a GM trans. Nothing wrong with the ZF box, its just not a manual.

Yeah I'd love to know who they surveyed. Maybe Ken Henderson can chime in hear, because I believe he was one. Most of the gripes online are pretty cringey, but the power, BMWiness, and lack of manual are very legitimate. Based on my corvette followings over the years most people hate the new ones online when they come out, but they still sell them... The things that is crazy to me is this is the first Supra that won't be very competitive with at least the V8 Camaro. This thing looks like barely a step up in V6 Camaro performance, but at like GT350 money. Honestly the MkIV Supra wouldn't be that famous if it had no upgrade ability. So I guess that's where the future hinges for this car. Not many people care about 3000GTs and they had just as much power stock, but they are hard to go beyond BPU levels.
 

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I like the looks of it, and have no doubt all the BMW parts are quality kit - their engines are very well tuned and have great driving manners. All that being said, 2 things:

-The engine won't be able to have massive modifications done to make huge reliable power like a 2JZ. Those days are done with pretty much any engine, especially an aluminum block BMW one.

-You need to understand that what you are buying is a BMW. And be prepared for the associated maintenance and parts cost that comes along with it. They are great cars, but like any german car they are over complicated, hard to work on and parts are expensive.
 
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On my second V8 Jaguar sedan I can't help but read little bits and pieces from the F-type crowd on the Jaguar forum. Power upgrades there appear to be seriously just a few keystokes. Numerous tuners sell their services and even among the various trim levels available from the dealer, there are astonishing ratings differences with all the same factory parts. I guess it kind of makes sense. With small volumes already, it would cut into profits to make even smaller runs of higher spec parts for only a fraction of the model line. With mere tuning and some minor cosmetic differences, they can put an R or S badge on a few cars and mark up the prices significantly. So unlike the mk4 Supra where nearly the entire driveline was beefed up in the turbo model, some newer sports cars may not have that much difference between the high and low spec. I do however suspect some of the markup probably goes into the warranty fund to cover the higher risk.

What it seems nearly everybody on that Jaguar forum is doing now is to buy the lower spec F-type and then just add another grand or so for an aftermarket tune. From the little I've read, seems few really have any idea what they are doing, writing about it like its no different from downloading a new app for their phone. Some have learned the hard way however that the ECU's all record a code when they are reflashed and even if the factory tune is put back before taking it in for service, JLR knows its had a tune applied. Whether they'll honor the warranty for engine/driveline related issues then becomes somewhat iffy. What's crazy too is that nearly every last one of them is "leased" from new. I can't imagine people putting a tune on a "leased" car, after all, its not really their car, its the bank's car. There was one poor guy who bought an F-type as a "certified pre-owned", then it needed a new engine and they wouldn't honor it. He swore he didn't put the tune on it but rather that the original lessee must have done it. I think the selling dealer finally got in trouble for violating the "certified" program, but I wouldn't want to go through that headache myself. So if any of you ever decide you want to buy one of these mkVs pre-owned (or any modern sports car), get it checked first to see if its had an aftermarket tune applied. If people read on the internet that some tuner will give them Z4 power for a few hundred dollars, that's going to be popular seller.
 
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
The things that is crazy to me is this is the first Supra that won't be very competitive with at least the V8 Camaro. This thing looks like barely a step up in V6 Camaro performance, but at like GT350 money.
Nope nope nope, you're forgetting the 365lbs/ft and lighter weight, Supra does 0-60 in 4.1, Camaro v8 does it in 4.0, forget about the v6.

Got me on the vette auto, I couldn't remember all the cars that use that tranny but it doesn't change my point.

As for the power potential of the motor, it's not bad. I think someone has gotten somewhere around 660whp out of it already without cracking open the bottom end, which is fantastic. But yeah, don't expect the 2jz's ridiculous stock bottomed power potential. It's also worth noting that Toyota stress tested thousands of BMW parts that went into this new platform to make sure they met their internal durability targets, and changes they suggested were made to hit them. But that doesn't mean it will be as reliable as a Toyota in the long haul. I suspect it will be the most reliable BMW you can buy, while also being the least reliable Toyota you can buy lol.
 

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Nope nope nope, you're forgetting the 365lbs/ft and lighter weight, Supra does 0-60 in 4.1, Camaro v8 does it in 4.0, forget about the v6.
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0-60 is such a meaningless statistic IMO like ring lap times. So much of that is launch control and traction in lab grade conditions. If it was the only thing the Tesla Model S would be the best sports car of all time. If you look thru the mag comparo tests the Camaro is neck and neck with the MkVs faster BMW sister cars the M2 comp and M4. Usually the Camaro is faster on the track and right there in acceleration. Considering you can pick up a Camaro for almost 20k less doesn't look good. I'm no Camaro lover (man the 2019 version is ugly....), but this thing is Camaroish performance at Corvette money with BMW reliability. The no manual transmission is icing on the cake. I really want to love this thing, but on paper it looks barely better than my BRZ with the supercharger on it. Everybody keeps talking about this super version Toyota is making with a new engine, and I think they're smoking crack. Considering the level of effort Toyota has put into this thing, it will probably have the Z4 engine minus 1 hp and some other parts from the BMW parts bin.
 
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