[DKJones96]

okay i want to drop in a 6m. instead of going around fixing my 5m why not work with an engine that has more power to begin with right? okay so i'm getting a header for the 5m but i'll wait to put it on the 6m. are the heads different at all? i'm gonna be buying valvesprings and cams and stuff for the 6m and prolly use the 5m for a killer gokart. anyways i'll need either slightly bigger injectors or an increased fp. i'd rather the bigger injectors so the australian 5m ecu i'm getting doesn't know there is more fuel needed for the 6m but just acts like it's a 5m. (i'm getting an australian ecu because they don't have a revvlimiter). see i'm gonna trick the ecu into thinking it's still running a 5m even tho it's running a performance 6m. i'll tighten the afm so the higher flow doesn't whip it open so it's useless at even 2000rpm. i wanna beef up the bottom end for the 7600 powerband. it'll get a new timing belt water pump yadda yadda the works and a complete gasket set(oem toyota gasket set)

okay the questions are:
are the 5m/6m heads different(flowwise)?
how do you beef up a bottom end for high rpm?
how much bigger injectors should i get so the 6m with a header and intake mods with a performance cam will seem like a 5m to the 5m ecu?
i'm looking for higher compression to compliment the cams so any pistons that would bring in like 9.8:1 or something would be great! i heard about pairing 84 pistons or something to i dunno but there are some pistons that can bring the 6m from 9.2:1 to 9.8:1.

any help would be great thanx!

 

[Tommy]

Once you get the 6M, take the rotating and reciprocating assy down to the local speed shop for balancing, lightening and maybe a knife edge on the crank. Lighter pistons would be good too. (read: will be needed)
The 6M pistons are flat top <83 5M equivalents so just get the 84-86 5M domed versions and you'll be at around 9.6:1 compression. The heads are the same so any head mods suitable for the 5M work on the 6M.

For fuel, you can get a set of 210cc injectors from a 4AGE, and if you run the 7M's 43psi FPR you will have ~225ccs of fuel delivery. You don't need to trick the ECU, it works fine.

I hope you aren't in smog-nazi land or you won't be able to run the 6M's plenum. (lack of EGR) Make sure you run the later 5M's or 6M's intake runners so you get the upgraded "D" port shape, and use with the later 5M plenum if you are.

Get with AG of Rabid Chimp fame for the 62mm TB and clean up the internals of the AFM ala Dean Anderson.

That will get you well on your way. But some larger (yet) injectors and advanced fuel management may be in order to hit 7,600 rpm.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Jamie

 

[DKJones96]

actually i do live in smog-nazi land but i still plan on using the 6m plenum i'm just gonna modify it to take egr i could swap intake plenums but i like the 3000 on it lol. besides most of the time except durring testing my egr is disabled anyways so oh well!

clean up the internals of the afm?

i was thinking about a mechanical opening that would unlock at WOT so there are two ways for the intake air to go that bypasses the afm and goes thru it. since it isn't even used i don't see it being a problem if i do that. the standalone fuel management i was trying to get past.

i was thinking about making myself a fuel management system that monitored the o2 sensor and would start injecting fuel via an injector at the trottlebody ONLY when it detected a lean situation. and however far off it is is however long it'd open the injector for and if it started and it got leaner it would just increase the fuel pulse time. but i dunno. i may just get an aftermarket piggyback system.

 

[Supra Bob]

I would not recommend allowing ANY air to bypass the AFM. even tho the signal isn't referenced at WOT, once you come off of WOT, your car will have no idea the mount of air in the intake... and could cause a bad lean condition.

As for the fuel, your on the right idea... what I would suggest however, is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (Like an AEM or similar), and play with it on a dyno.

The AFM internals Jamie is talking about is nothing more than a simple porting of the AFM to allow more/better flow of air thru it. Dean Anderson has done it, and I think he said it bench tests at about a 7% increase in airflow.

If your interested, I have one of the MAF Conversion kits for sale that I don;t need. If ya wanna know more about it..PM me or look in the Group Buy thread... most of the info is still in there.

 

[DKJones96]

i was wondering about that lean situation. about the fuel system tho i still don't know exactly what i wanna do cuz most systems are meant for boosting aren't they? not really an assist at high rpms?

 

[DKJones96]

is there anyway to calculate hp? with addons?

 

[SilverMk2]

Probably about 170 rwhp at around 5800 RPM, at least is what I made with those mods.

 

[DKJones96]

i plan to run the 7600 redline the new cam states to have as the engines new peak powerband rating but more then likely i'll tune it and build it to go 500 over that. paired with 4.30 rearend i think it could be fun!

 

[SilverMk2]

My 171 rwhp # was with a 6M with 10.5:1 compression and the Gude cam. Peak power was right about 5800 RPM and falling from there.

 

[DKJones96]

howd you get 10.5:1? and what kind of headwork did you do to get it ready for high rpm breathing? that might be the problem. but that's cool tho if it's there i won't have to manually switch gears to hit peak power. tho it'd be badass to hit 8k in a race. since the 5m has the smaller displacement it might be a better idea if i want it to revv high to keep the 5m in there. the 4.30 rearend will makeup for the lack of bottomend.

i still can't believe no one can find an australian ecu to sell me. I HATE MY REVV LIMITER lol. that might be where my funny engine noises are coming from. lol!

i'm goin to the tracks the weekend after christmas to prove to my freinds the cressida isnt as slow as it feels. it's my saggyass suspention cuz i've been in a 14 second 0-60 car and it felt faster then my 9 second 0-60. plus that honda i'm racing is the base model w/out v-tec so whatever he can eat my rubber.

 

[ren0]

Once you get the 6M, take the rotating and reciprocating assy down to the local speed shop for balancing, lightening and maybe a knife edge on the crank. Lighter pistons would be good too. (read: will be needed)
The 6M pistons are flat top <83 5M equivalents so just get the 84-86 5M domed versions and you'll be at around 9.6:1 compression. The heads are the same so any head mods suitable for the 5M work on the 6M.

For fuel, you can get a set of 210cc injectors from a 4AGE, and if you run the 7M's 43psi FPR you will have ~225ccs of fuel delivery. You don't need to trick the ECU, it works fine.

I hope you aren't in smog-nazi land or you won't be able to run the 6M's plenum. (lack of EGR) Make sure you run the later 5M's or 6M's intake runners so you get the upgraded "D" port shape, and use with the later 5M plenum if you are.

Get with AG of Rabid Chimp fame for the 62mm TB and clean up the internals of the AFM ala Dean Anderson.

That will get you well on your way. But some larger (yet) injectors and advanced fuel management may be in order to hit 7,600 rpm.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Jamie

i have a 6mge with the 3000 plenium and i passed the emissions test. utah's test might be a lot different than others though.

 

[SilverMk2]

howd you get 10.5:1?

Toyota performance pack pistons in a 6M w/ .035" of combined deck material removed. Head and manifolds are ported, valves were worked, headers and exhaust, and the usual intake pipe and filter.

 

[DKJones96]

howd you get 10.5:1?

Toyota performance pack pistons in a 6M w/ .035" of combined deck material removed. Head and manifolds are ported, valves were worked, headers and exhaust, and the usual intake pipe and filter.

damn. i really want a highrevver. i think engines hitting 8k like the rsx type-s even tho it's a 4 banger sounds badass at 8k.

 

[SilverMk2]

Buy a Honda if you want that sort of engine. The only 2 Toyota engines that are really high revvers are the 4AGE and 2ZZGEs. Its area under the curve that matters in the real world. 240 hp at 8500 or so RPM in the S2000 sounds great till you find out its like 50hp at 4000RPM. I've never had a problem out running any of these Hondas in my MkII. The only one that has ever out run me was a mid 90s hatch with a B18 and spray.

 

[Dean]

The AFM internals Jamie is talking about is nothing more than a simple porting of the AFM to allow more/better flow of air thru it. Dean Anderson has done it, and I think he said it bench tests at about a 7% increase in airflow.

It is a simple porting of the AFM. I haven't bench tested it, but I've calculated the increase in cross-sectional area available for airflow, and it is about 7% larger than stock. It should flow better than stock, but I don't know by how much.

See midway through this thread for pics and description of what I did.
http://www.celicasupra.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4645

 

[Push]

what about those Lexus MAF's? I heard many MK3 Supra guys are swapping to those for more airflow or something? :?:

 

[SilverMk2]

what about those Lexus MAF's?

Only works on 7MGTEs

 

[DKJones96]

yup cuz we run analog signals and those MAFs are digital. oh well. my 5m open manifold sounds cool enough i guess lol. it can makeup for the lack of high revving. even tho it sounds like it's getting the shit revved outta it already at 6k. i guess your right about the topend power it'd only see that high of a revv on a rare occasion.

maybe a 7m-gte is in order here.the japanese dynos of the 7m-gte's show them to have a pretty flat torque curve between 2-5k. put a high stall torque converter and peel them tires.

the jz block doesn't bolt into these cars does it...dammit.

 

[SupraWes]

Silver MK2

Does that become an interference engine when you put the power pack pistons in a 6M? I still prefer the idea of a fully worked N/A engine over just adding a Turbo. I know its way more expensive to do it that way and you make less power, but I like the instant throttle response and the sound of an N/A better. 170 seems pretty low for all that, I think im around 160 at the wheels now based on my acceleration numbers with less mods on a 5M. It put down 140 when it was a half a second and 4 mph slower in the 1/4. Its actually more like 170 according to the HP calculators I just checked.

 

[SilverMk2]

Silver MK2

Does that become an interference engine when you put the power pack pistons in a 6M? I still prefer the idea of a fully worked N/A engine over just adding a Turbo. I know its way more expensive to do it that way and you make less power, but I like the instant throttle response and the sound of an N/A better. 170 seems pretty low for all that, I think im around 160 at the wheels now based on my acceleration numbers with less mods on a 5M. It put down 140 when it was a half a second and 4 mph slower in the 1/4. Its actually more like 170 according to the HP calculators I just checked.

The power pack pistons are non-interference on a 6M. The actual piston in a 6M comes to the same point TDC as a 5M and the head is the same. That 171 # was with the cams installed. The car is much stronger without them. I think I made less torque than a 5M with them in. I'd guesstimate 180-185 these days. I'll never know for sure though. If you want good power I'd go 7MGTE, thats my plan anyway. The power band is basically 6M on the low end with much more top end. The stock 7MGTE has a nice powerband. Not really that powerful, but still much better than any NA 6M is going to be.