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Discussion Starter #1
I had my 5mgte on the dyno last night.. for the first time since it was build last summer.

Im running 5,8 psi boost - according to my equus gauge.

However -- It was sooooooooooo lean that the mechanic wouldn't take it over 4000 rpm. He estimated that it needed 40% more fuel.

If I was running a stock 5mge with turbo I would prolly have blown something by now - luckily, I have forged pistons and lowered compression.

Here's the print out... unfortunately I didnt get a print of the torque and a/f ratio. Now I just need to add 1 or 2 injectors to the intake and some management for them.

 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes... stock injectors.

And only 1:1 RRFPR ... I will prolly try a 2:1 RRFPR, or more, at first... or - add 1 or 2 injectors to the intake and make some cheapass management which is either ON or OFF according to boost.
 

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think about some 295's

Man if you get a hold of some 295's from the 7mge and wire them in with the 7mge clips then you'll never have any fuel worries at all....they are easy to wire in and I can even give you the diagram to wire them...mate them up with an safc and large fuel pump and you'll have plenty of fuel for 5-8 possible even 10 or more psi....This is the setup I ran with me recent rebuild and she's running like a champ.....let me know if you want that diagram....
 

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Re: think about some 295's

Natro - no thanks... I will not install bigger injectors - it will make the car run like sh*t when not boosting. Remember, I have no o2 sensor so the car cannot handle larger injectors at all. And SAFC is way too expensive for me :D But thanks for your input :)
 

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Re: think about some 295's

Natro33 said:
Man if you get a hold of some 295's from the 7mge and wire them in with the 7mge clips then you'll never have any fuel worries at all....they are easy to wire in and I can even give you the diagram to wire them...mate them up with an safc and large fuel pump and you'll have plenty of fuel for 5-8 possible even 10 or more psi....This is the setup I ran with me recent rebuild and she's running like a champ.....let me know if you want that diagram....
I just got some yellow tops for my 6M-GTE setup. Now I need the 7M-GE clips..... and that diagram would be nice.

Now to decide on S-AFC or Split Second
 

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Re: think about some 295's

supra2800turbo said:
Natro - no thanks... I will not install bigger injectors - it will make the car run like sh*t when not boosting. Remember, I have no o2 sensor so the car cannot handle larger injectors at all. And SAFC is way too expensive for me :D But thanks for your input :)
You could afford forged pistons but not an AFC?

295cc injectors will work fine when not boosting.

As far as not having an O2 sensor, what happened to it? It isnt that hard to get one put on.

I would think you would spend as much money jimmyrigging a couple extra injectors as you would getting an S-AFC. The version 1 can be had for $225 new and the version 2 can be had for $325.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Re: think about some 295's

CRF_Rider said:
You could afford forged pistons but not an AFC?
I bought the engine (block) with forged pistons and lowered compression for only $190.

CRF_Rider said:
295cc injectors will work fine when not boosting.
Doubtfully .... - they will throw in 100cc more fuel than the stock injectors, at the same flow rate.

CRF_Rider said:
As far as not having an O2 sensor, what happened to it? It isnt that hard to get one put on.
The danish (european maybe?) Supra mk2's didnt come with one - neither did the australians.... and I suppose my ECU is not even compatible with one.


I like jimmyrigging - thats the fun part :D And, if I were to buy a S-AFC (which I cant remember what is, and where to get one) - I would prolly have to pay for shipping from the states as well ... not cheap!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
By the way - in Denmark an Apexi S-AFC costs $625 ... for that price I can get a fully progammable aftermarket ECU ...
 

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well they go for 400 canadian here, why not just order one from overseas.

They are other options too, like you could get 250cc injectors or at least 210cc ones, then dial back the afm a bit to lean out your idle then use a decent rrfpr to enrichen your top end. Either way I d say its easier, less hacky, and more reliable then wiring up another set of injectors.
 

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How much would it cost for a North American ECU and o2 sensor shipped to you. Those plus some 210ccs would be cheaper than drilling rigging extra injectors.

I was wondering also where do you mount the extra injectors to get even fuel delivery to all cylinders? before the throttle body could result in the fuel condensing into droplets before the intake valves and on the intake manifold might favour certain cylinders over others resulting in lean cylinders and rich cylinders which isnt really an improvment.

-Wil
Just thinking out loud :)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
dohc82 said:
How much would it cost for a North American ECU and o2 sensor shipped to you. Those plus some 210ccs would be cheaper than drilling rigging extra injectors.

I was wondering also where do you mount the extra injectors to get even fuel delivery to all cylinders? before the throttle body could result in the fuel condensing into droplets before the intake valves and on the intake manifold might favour certain cylinders over others resulting in lean cylinders and rich cylinders which isnt really an improvment.

-Wil
Just thinking out loud :)
I dont know how much it would cost... probably not that much though. An o2 sensor I can probably use from a mk3? mk3's over here do have one.

What advantages is there when running with an o2 sensor?


I would mount the extra injectors somewhere on the intake - maybe like 4-5 inches away from TB. And yes, it will work, trust me - the fuel will find its way. I've seen this system (MF2 - Map fueler) work on several cars and it has worked for years on most of them - even with 14 psi boost.

And I would also think that 6 new (used?) injectors would cost quite a bit.
I learned yesterday by a mechanic who specialices in this kind of things, that its better to leave the injection as stock as possible, and them add some extra injectors (perhaps 1 extra injector for each cylinder - into the intake manifold) and some management, ie piggyback.
 

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Yes one per cylinder would work but how to machine all the injector ports plus buy the injectors.

I'm sure youve thought of all this and im not second guessing or disagreeing.

I am trying to learn because I have 210cc injectors I was planning on adding so I want to know all the pros and cons.

The o2 sensor helps the engine adjust the air fuel mix. That plus the North American ecu to control it would give you a stock fuel system with more flexability.

-Wil
 

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Discussion Starter #14
So what you're saying is - if I were having a ECU and o2 sensor then the car wouldnt mind driving with bigger injectors at all?

Just one problem ... 210cc injectors would only give me about 250hp at max... - might not be enough you know :D

I really think that I will try adding 1 or 2 injectors to the intake - get it on the dyno, see how it goes. And rememer to check the spark plugs very often to make sure that all the cylinders get plenty of fuel.

We're lucky - imagine, on most older Opel engines, the intake is in the side of the intake manifold ... and not in the middle as ours.
 

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Klaus.. Couple of suggestions for ya here. Myself and Jamie Bergen spent MONTHS trying to figure out safe alternatives to an RRFPR and here's some of the ways we found.

The 295's WILL work without an S-AFC. Ray Fong got it to work without one and his car ran smooth from what I understand. It just involves modding the AFM. You would have to ask him how far exactly, but it weas close to almost one full turn I believe.

Another route you could go, and would probably be the easiest, would be to change the diaphram in your RRFPR, like you said, but you'll need to go higher than 2:1. IIRC, most guys are running in the 5 or 6:1 area.

While the additional injector idea prior to the throttlebody can work, its a bit unsafe. The reason I say that, is because when the fuel is spraying, theres no garentee that you'll get even flow into each intake runner, which could lead to some cylinders running rich, and other running lean. Still, its better than nothing at all. Another place you could concieve of putting the extra injectors (and this is something I was gonna do before I got the Split Second kit) is welding an additional injector bung on each intake runner, and having the extra fuel injector there. If you added in an additional set of stock 182cc injectors there, you would have more than enough fuel at up to 14 PSI and you wouldn't have to worry about proper distribution.

While an O2 sensor would help, on a MK II ECU its effects are limited to an extent. It will only adjust the mix by 20 to 25%, which really, under boost, just isn't enough unless your running about .25 BAR (or ~4 PSI)

Personally, I would suggest this for the amount of boost your running. Get a set of 210's (if you can't find the locally in a scrap yard over there, I am sure that someone here could source them for ya and ship them... Cost to ship them would only be ~$20 or so, and injectors generally are about $60 to $100 in yards here), I would mod the AFM to go a bit leaner (maybe 3 or 4 teeth leaner than stock), and increase your RRFPR to a 4 or 5:1 disc... That way, your idle/off-boost would remain smooth, you would have suffieicent fuel under boost, and yet you wouldn't be pushing an insane amount of Fuel Pressure thru your injectors.. Just a suggestion tho :)

HTH
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Supra Bob said:
The 295's WILL work without an S-AFC. Ray Fong got it to work without one and his car ran smooth from what I understand. It just involves modding the AFM. You would have to ask him how far exactly, but it weas close to almost one full turn I believe.
I will try n' mail Fong and see what he has to say. I've heard about him several times :)

Another route you could go, and would probably be the easiest, would be to change the diaphram in your RRFPR, like you said, but you'll need to go higher than 2:1. IIRC, most guys are running in the 5 or 6:1 area.
Wow... 5:1 or 6:1 is alot ... isnt it ? That mean I will be running a max fuel pressure at 80 psi !! When boosting 7 psi ... right? Can the fuel pump really keep up with that? I would rather not change the fuel pump, not yet at least.


Another place you could concieve of putting the extra injectors (and this is something I was gonna do before I got the Split Second kit) is welding an additional injector bung on each intake runner, and having the extra fuel injector there. If you added in an additional set of stock 182cc injectors there, you would have more than enough fuel at up to 14 PSI and you wouldn't have to worry about proper distribution.
Yes that suggestion did the dyno guy also come up with. It would look really cool with 6 extra injectors on the intake manifold :D Basically, wouldnt this be the best idea? 6 extra injectors, ie 180cc's, and a piggyback (PerfectPower SMT6) which can control 6 extra injectors and lots of other things... this piggyback goes for $350 and the installation and testing on the dyno for $225.

While an O2 sensor would help, on a MK II ECU its effects are limited to an extent. It will only adjust the mix by 20 to 25%, which really, under boost, just isn't enough unless your running about .25 BAR (or ~4 PSI)
Oh okay .. I see... then I wouldnt want to install another ECU just for that reason. Might end of mounting an o2 sensor after all, but it will be connected to an a/f ratio gauge.


Personally, I would suggest this for the amount of boost your running. Get a set of 210's (if you can't find the locally in a scrap yard over there, I am sure that someone here could source them for ya and ship them... Cost to ship them would only be ~$20 or so, and injectors generally are about $60 to $100 in yards here), I would mod the AFM to go a bit leaner (maybe 3 or 4 teeth leaner than stock), and increase your RRFPR to a 4 or 5:1 disc... That way, your idle/off-boost would remain smooth, you would have suffieicent fuel under boost, and yet you wouldn't be pushing an insane amount of Fuel Pressure thru your injectors.. Just a suggestion tho :)
HTH
Very good suggestion!!! And the 210cc from the 4AGE engine would fit in without any problems, as far as I remember. Do they cost $60-$100 a piece or for 6 injectors?

This suggestion is probably the cheapest solution , but I might want to try with 2 stage boost - like stage 1 is 5 psi and stage 2 is 10 psi.

Thanks for all the good suggestions ;-)
 

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Well instead of posting another thread I feel this fits in so Il ask.

Basically the non-cheap (no offense) and most efficient way, would be to get some MR-2 N/A (what years?) injectors and install them (same impedence, or is there rewiring that needs to take place?), get a RRFPR (any recommended companies) rated at about 5-6psi of FP:1 psi of boost, install a walbro 190lph or 255lph fp and lean out the idle/gain a bit on the afm (the stock ones can be adjusted huh?) to account for the slight increase in gain from the 210cc injectors....

Am I coming close to teh ideal fuel support for a 6MGTE? Thanks guys,

Austin
 

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Discussion Starter #18
MKIIBeater... yes you're hanging on to the right thing. However, while you're at it ... you should go with the 255lph walbro pump, and not the smaller one.

I dont know about the 6mgte, but I heard last night someone who said that 210cc's in a 5mgte would be too little. Of course its better than a kick in your butt - or the stock 180cc injectors - but think about it... the mk3 NA are using 330cc injectors and have 204 hp. We with the 5mgte should be able to produce at least the same amount of horsepowers - but with only 210cc's? :?:
 

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Klaus, I run 210cc injectors, along with a new Toyota Fuel pump and a Cartech rrfpr. I am running very rich all through the rpm range. This is running 7psi of boost. With the right setup, 210's could get you at least 225 rwhp.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
82Spearco said:
Klaus, I run 210cc injectors, along with a new Toyota Fuel pump and a Cartech rrfpr. I am running very rich all through the rpm range. This is running 7psi of boost. With the right setup, 210's could get you at least 225 rwhp.
What are you going to do when you decide to boost 10 or 12 psi ?

Do you have some data on that fuel pump? Is it just a MA61 fuel pump thats brand new?
 
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