Toyota Celica Supra Forum banner
Cancel

how to piss the #$% out of a supra fan: (UPDATED)

3399 Views 30 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  Deanfun, 
Deanfun
oh, look at this - the '82 doesn't start. you have to push start it. that's fine, but then i read on good ol CS.com that starter failures (where it works 1/500 times or so) is a common thing to happen. funny story, that's EXACTLY my problem.

what's this? I have an 84 p-type with a seized engine and a WORKING starter? I know it works, because i turn the key and hear it try and turn the engine, to no avail.

well, i'm a genius. i'll pull the broken one out of the 82, and slap in the 84. no problem. hour tops.

then i read that changing starters is slightly harder than reliably running 20 pounds of boost on a stock 5m. hmm. okay, so maybe 2 hours.

So off i trot to my workshop, break out my tools, and get to work on the 84. it takes a while to get it off the first time, but i don't get angry. i expected this.

then i jack up the 82, and pull it's starter. i inspect them... they look the exact same, no biggy.

so i fiddle around and get the 84 starter into the 82. a job well done i might say. with mom watching, i turn the key:

nothing. same damn problem. hmph, i say. that's no good. so i start to think to myself - "let's get rid of some variables here". I plug the 82 starter into the 84. nothing. okay, so that would mean that the 82 starter is in fact fucked.

then i pull out the 84 starter out of the 82, and slap it back in the 84.




Nothing.

WTF??!?!?!?!? it worked a few hours ago.

so now i'm pissed, because i can't get either to work in the 84, and i discovered that the rubber seal on the transmission for the clutch-arm-release thing is screwed up and torn on the 82, and that it's been leaking tranny oil everywhere, it seems.

So in the end, I put the 84 starter back in the 82, push-started it, gave it a few minutes to warm up, and tore about a mile down the street and back.

#1. wiring scares the shit out of me, but does anyone have any other clues as to what can solve my problem? i pretty much damn well refuse to take it to a mechanic - for now. I don't believe in spending grotesque amounts of money on something that in can do myself given enough time (and time is something i have a lot of, sort of).

#2. the car doesn't really start to pull hard until 3500rpms... are they all like this, or could this be indicative of some aftermarket cams? i mean at 3500 the cars goes from docile sports coupe to angry-loud-growling-speed-machine. i like it a lot.

#3. i'm getting pissed off at it. do any vancouver members feel like spending some time with me trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with it? please? i'll supply the beer?
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
MK2Racer
Rip it off and bench test it. Get jumper cables and a battery, hook it up on the bench. If it fires it is definitely good, if it does not fire it is definitely screwed. That eliminates all other wiring issues, since power is directly there. To do this, you need a screwdriver or something to short from the + terminal to the ignition terminal (you need 12v at two terminals to start it), ground the case to the - terminal, make sure ground is good or it wont start. If it works, then check the start switch ( in the columt I believe, correct me if Im wrong). If that is good, open the solenoid and look at all the contacts, make sure they are squeaky clean and that everything works correctly. I had quite a time with my starter, but in the end all is well. Ended up having to replace solenoid, as it would click and click but would not start, fortunately I had a spare from an 87 camry, identical solenoid. If you do need a solenoid, it might be cheaper/easier to find one from that car as opposed to a supra. FYI. Other than that, dont ground the positive wire to the frame, you let the magic smoke out of your positive wire and it wont work (after the fire goes away). :) Dont ask...
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
R
I'm sorry if this seems foolish but did you disconnect the battery? I know that if you unplug/plug in a starter with the battery still connected you can fry them. If you did that you can check the starter outside the car to eliminate that possibility completely. Just take your battery and a set of jumper cables, hook one end of the cables to your battery and the positive to the positive bolt on the starter. Then touch the negative cable to the back end of the starter. It should start spinning and the solenoid should slam out. You can watch it, it's pretty cool, but watch out because it'll jump a pretty good amount when you first touch it. If it doesn't spin or the solenoid doesn't activate then you know you have a bad starter. If they both work then you know to look somewhere else. I would say wiring but it scares me too so I'd call your local toyota dealership and ask them what happens when the starter fails and why. If it's a common thing they'll probably know how to fix it and can just tell you some things to try over the phone. I hope this helps and good luck with it.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
R
damnit, ya beat me to it, oh well. It's still a good idea
Reply
Save
Like
SupraFiend
Hey. The testing the starter thing sounds good to me. I'll just add that you should pick up the factory shop repair manual for your car sometime. Its got trouble shooting sections that will slowly elimante all possiblities, and all the proper testing procedures for all components. It takes time, but if you go through them all you should be able to narrow it down to your problem. The haynes manual for our cars isn't too bad either, and is pretty cheap and easy to pick up. Don't despair, you'll get it. I'd come out and give you a hand tommorrow but the only insured car here right now is up on jackstands and its tranny is sitting on the ground. I've got my work cut out for me tommorrow too :)
Reply
Save
Like
Malibyte
As long as we're talking about starters - I will probably have to remove the one in my '84 tomorrow to replace a little hose which connects to the aluminum coolant tube between the starter and the intake plenum. Does anyone have an EASY way to get the top bolt out (the bottom one is easy to get to, looks like the one on the top side is a real PITA)? Thanks - just trying to avoid spending the whole day on this little job...I have to replace the wiper motor, too!

-- Bob --
Reply
Save
Like
Voyn238
>>
As long as we're talking about starters - I will probably have to remove the one in my '84 tomorrow to replace a little hose which connects to the aluminum coolant tube between the starter and the intake plenum. Does anyone have an EASY way to get the top bolt out (the bottom one is easy to get to, looks like the one on the top side is a real PITA)? Thanks - just trying to avoid spending the whole day on this little job...I have to replace the wiper motor, too!
>>

Good Gawd, I hate that hose :) I've replaced it many many times. My first question is: Why pull the starter when you can change this hose from the top side? It's tricky, but it's very doable. If you're standing on the drivers side, stick your arm down by the strut tower, and then work your arm back til you can feel the hose. Your elbow should pretty much be resting on the coil at this point, and you should be able to undo the clamp fairly easily. For the front connection, stick your arm down by the side of the battery and start feeling around. Your arm may get a little scratched up, but I'd do just about anything to avoid having to pull that starter :)

If you really wanna pull the starter, though, invest in a universal joint and a couple of 3 and 6 inch extensions. I think I had the best success with putting the socket on the end of the 3" extension, then the universal joint, and then the 6" extension. Of course, be sure to pull the ground cable on the battery first.


Anyways, on to the original topic: Why not just take the starter to Auto Zone or Advance? If you already have it out, they'll do the test for free. No need to worry about possibly hooking it up wrong and damaging it further... Either get a remanufactured one, or ask them what's wrong with yours and then try to fix it. If you get a reman'd one, get one from Auto Zone, their guarantee is better, IMO.



Good luck to both of you!
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
Deanfun
Malibyte said:
As long as we're talking about starters - I will probably have to remove the one in my '84 tomorrow to replace a little hose which connects to the aluminum coolant tube between the starter and the intake plenum. Does anyone have an EASY way to get the top bolt out (the bottom one is easy to get to, looks like the one on the top side is a real PITA)? Thanks - just trying to avoid spending the whole day on this little job...I have to replace the wiper motor, too!

-- Bob --
Click to expand...
thanks guys, i'll test out both starters... tomorrow if i have the chance.

i have an 84 TSRM AND a 71-84 or so celica/supra haynes manual, so i'm set there. i'd like to get an 82 TSRM as they have a couple unique things in them.

to get the top bolt out, i used two 3/8's ratchets, both with 14mm. all i did was reach inbetween the firewall and the engine on the starter side, and get one ratchet firmly onto the "engine side" of the top bolt. you may have to go in from beside the intake (just below it) if your arms don't fit. it's a tight squeeze either way.

then i went under the car on the starter side. i took my 3/8th's ratchet and added two extensions. one was about 8 inches or so long (standard 3/8th's extension size, and the other was about half that. if you have TWO standard size extensions, that would be better - but i don't have as many tools as i would like. in any case, i also used a swivel head on the very end, one that can pivot in all directions. i attached the 14mm to this and fed it up beside the transmission just behind the clutch lever. i stuck one hand up beside the tire and over the starter - feeling for the 14mm socket as it came up. remember that the first 14mm ratchet is still sitting on the "engine side" of the bolt, so don't knock it off. basically, i fiddled around with the long ratchet, twisting the swivel head until it fit onto the "firewall side" of the bolt. once it was fitted, i slowly undid the bolt - stopping every few turns as the swivel head caused the socket to come off the bolt.

better yet, if it doesn't rain tomorrow, i'll go take a bunch of pictures as i take the 84 starter out of the 82. that'll give you a much better idea of what is going on. reading it in writing is very difficult.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
SupraFiend
hey Slip, theres actually ALOT of differences engine wise between the 82 & 84s. Since you have on FSRM already, the haynes should be enough. But I haven't heard of the early one you have. The common one covers 82 to 92, and is pretty good.
Reply
Save
Like
J
Those little ratcheting box wrenches with the bendy heads are the best tool ive found for changing the starter. Oh, and my wife's little hand to jam in on the front side.
Reply
Save
Like
Deanfun
well after testing both starters by using a battery (i should've done that to begin with *slap*) i discovered that both are in working order. Damn it looks cool when they turn on though 8)

i took pictures and a small video of me testing the starter that i'll work into a kind of tutorial for "changing your supras starter" or something. maybe it can be added to the faq on the main site?
Reply
Save
Like
Deanfun
MK2Racer said:
If it works, then check the start switch ( in the columt I believe, correct me if Im wrong). If that is good, open the solenoid and look at all the contacts, make sure they are squeaky clean and that everything works correctly. I had quite a time with my starter, but in the end all is well. Ended up having to replace solenoid, as it would click and click but would not start, fortunately I had a spare from an 87 camry, identical solenoid. If you do need a solenoid, it might be cheaper/easier to find one from that car as opposed to a supra. FYI. Other than that, dont ground the positive wire to the frame, you let the magic smoke out of your positive wire and it wont work (after the fire goes away). :) Dont ask...
Click to expand...
well the starter worked once i hooked it up directly to a battery, the plunger shot out rapidly. it was pretty cool. i plugged that back into the car, but it still won't start.

because the starter spun, does this not mean that the solenoid in the starter works? i have a very limited understanding of electronics (which sucks considering i've taken physics through high school and am in engineering in university). I'm going to look through my 84 TSRM and the haynes that i have - maybe they'll tell me what to look for in the steering column.

a friend of mine who's more gifted in electronics than i am told me about the solenoid just now... and it seems that if i was able to get the starter running via just the battery, the solenoid would definitely be fine. in which case, i should be grabbing a multimeter and testing both wires that go to the starter for a 12v connection. if they both have 12v when the key is turned, then somehow it would be the starter.

basically, i'm trying to eliminate things, and i'm learning as i go. anyone else have more wisdom wiring-wise? things i should look for?

PS: i'm getting really good at taking out and putting in the starter.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
Malibyte
Good Gawd, I hate that hose. I've replaced it many many times. My first question is: Why pull the starter when you can change this hose from the top side? It's tricky, but it's very doable. If you're standing on the drivers side, stick your arm down by the strut tower, and then work your arm back til you can feel the hose. Your elbow should pretty much be resting on the coil at this point, and you should be able to undo the clamp fairly easily. For the front connection, stick your arm down by the side of the battery and start feeling around. Your arm may get a little scratched up, but I'd do just about anything to avoid having to pull that starter.
Click to expand...
Well, I can feel the clamp at the bottom end but can't remove it with my hand alone because of the angle...and I can't seem to get a pair of needlenose down there to grab it either. The top end attaches to the throttle body, so that end is easy. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have a long enough 14mm box-end wrench to grab the nut on the back end of the top starter bolt, either.

I'll figure it out somehow...always have before. It amazes me. Some of the stuff on the MkII is so intelligently thought out, and other things are such a pain in the ass. Too bad the committee that designed the best couldn't have done the rest as well.
Reply
Save
Like
Malibyte
Well, had to give up on it for today. The ends of my left thumb and index finger are too raw to continue for now....can't get the damn clamp off. Tried pushing the hose off of the nipple from below...that didn't work either.

aaarrghhh.

-- Bob --
Reply
Save
Like
SupraFiend
It is doable bob. I had to do that one on the side of the road on top of mountain in 40 degree weather once. That was not fun!

And yep, those rachet wrenchs with the swivel heads are life savers! They are essential to every mechanics too kit. Just don't wrench on them too hard, their rachets aren't as strong as a traditional one. I finished the clutch in my wifes AE last night. Man, I think I used every single rachet wrench I had (even the 13mm!), but I still need on in 17mm, that would have saved some time.

Slip, yep your on the right track. Test for 12v at the starter wires when you crank, but be careful! Those wires are almost connected directly to the battery and alot of current flows through them. Be sure the positive lead does not touch ground at all when your doing it. By the sounds of it you have an electrical gremlin else where. I belive there is a starter fuze somwhere, it could be a melted fuzable link too. Just keep checking back from those wires till you get to the battery, the problem has to be somewhere in between. You can check the wires comeing down from the ingition column too. Look up the wiring diagrams and find out which wire has 12v when the key is cranking, make sure theres power there then. Could even be a problem with the switch on the lock cylinder. Good luck.

Oh just had a thought. This car have any sign of ever having an alarm installed? If so most alarm installs cut the wire under the dash that gets 12vs when the starter is cranking. If the alarm brain is not in use then this circuit will never be bridged. Look at the base of the steering column and look for aftermarket wires running to the 3 or 4 or 5 big beefy oem wires running into the the steering coloumn. One of those is the one that gets cut. If it has been there will likely be a big chunky relay attached to it with a bunch of wires. Just find where they cut the wire and solder it back together and remove all of the added wires and such.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
R
RWDCelicadude said:
I know that if you unplug/plug in a starter with the battery still connected you can fry them.
Click to expand...
Heh, and start the car on fire.
Reply
Save
Like
Deanfun
SupraFiend said:
Oh just had a thought. This car have any sign of ever having an alarm installed? If so most alarm installs cut the wire under the dash that gets 12vs when the starter is cranking. If the alarm brain is not in use then this circuit will never be bridged. Look at the base of the steering column and look for aftermarket wires running to the 3 or 4 or 5 big beefy oem wires running into the the steering coloumn. One of those is the one that gets cut. If it has been there will likely be a big chunky relay attached to it with a bunch of wires. Just find where they cut the wire and solder it back together and remove all of the added wires and such.
Click to expand...
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: the car DOES have a non-operational alarm. maybe.

it's non-operational in the sense that the batteries in the remote are dead so i can't arm/disarm it.

i have come up with a better idea though - i'm going to avoid the key-start thing entirely and work up a 6 switch + push button combination start. it sounds stupid, but it'll work i think.
Reply
Save
Like
SupraFiend
don't bother, I bet you its the alarm. No aftermarket alarm system will let you start the car unless the brain has power and its in the disarmed state. Seriously, pull the panel below the steering column (no theone on the steering colum) off and look for some wires running to the some big thick oem wires on the right side. Trace those to where they connect and remove them then reconnect that wire, your problem will be solved. Don't go for a hack solution, the proper way is easy! Or just get the alarm working again too. BUt chances are if it is the cause its more then just a problem of the fob not having batteries, sounds like its disconected.
Reply
Save
Like
J
I agree with Seamus,after reading everything else.I have remove birds nests from 3 seperate mkII's in the last 2 years.Evey one of them had starting issues,intermitantly,and on one occasion permantly,until fixed as Seamus describes.
Reply
Save
Like
Deanfun
i'll take a look at that tomorrow. i have a buddy coming over who's more adept at electronics than me and he'll help me out. i also emailed the previous owner to ask him what the deal with the alarm is/was, as he never made any mention of it. for all i know, it could still be hooked up with dead remote batteries.

but a push button start would be SO COOL.
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Toyota Celica Supra Forum
A forum community dedicated to Toyota Celica Supra owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
General Chat General Tech Q&A Parts For Sale Picture Post Engine / Intake / Exhaust
Top