[esanmiguel]

Hi, I am new to this forum.
I mostly hang out at the celica GTS website:

http://celica-gts.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

I have owned an 84 Celica GTS and currently own an 85 GTS Convertible.
I am very familiar with the 22RE engines. Good, reliable, and easy to work on. However, if you have ever driven a 22RE powered celica, it is dog slow. I will keep the convertible but I am planning to get another car that I can drive daily and also use for Autocrossing (I am a novice). I am
considering several cars, the Supra is on the top of the list. I have several questions..
Is there are particular year better than another?
How fast are these cars stock?
How easy it is to work on? Are parts easy to come by?
Are these engines as reliable as the 22RE?
What about the Mk3's ?
Is the Auto trans ok? or dog slow ?
Will it do ok for autocross ?

Other cars I am considering is:
Mitsu 3000GT
Mazda MX6 V6
Toyota Corolla AE86

 

[Hosam]

Hey,

Well, I would definately recommend the Supra over you other choices simply because it is far more reliable than the 3000 GT and the MX-6. I know for sure with the 3000GT you will go thru about a million alternators and it has a history for cooling system failure. The MX-6 isn't bad, u have to remember that its a front wheel drive.

I like the MK2 Supra cuz it combines sportiness, adequate fuel economy and best of all bullet proof reliability. MK3's are notorious for head gasket failures if you don't baby them and maintenance cost are slightly more expensive.

There's alot more info on the Supra sites.

Hope this helped.

-Hosam

 

[SupraWes]

Stay far far away from the 3000GT its most likely one of the worst cars ever and does not fit any of your requirements at all. As far as the supra, parts are not as easy to get as the 22R almost everything will be special order if you can get it at all. I would recommend taking a trip to your local junkyards and see if they have any supras, also go to some of the shops in your town that specialize in toyotas and ask if they have spare engines and such around that you can buy parts off if you need to. As far as working on it the supra is not as easy as the celica. Engines just dont get much simpler than a 22R so I was spoiled. For autocrossing its not exactly the best either. Stock tire size is 225/60/14 there are just no good wide 14" tires made anymore, and the cars are geared very low already so putting on smaller tires only makes them worse for normal driving. Thats not saying the car cant be competitive, but it will take lots of work and driving ability to make it so. Its a little on the heavy side too at 3000 lbs The mk3 supra is really heavy, ~3800 lbs and is not well suited for autocross either.

 

[Square]

The MkII is not a bad choice, but you might want to look at a MR2 or a miata if you want to do a lot of AutoX with the car. Also, the newest of the MkII's (1986) are now 17 years old, and while reliable, will most likely need some work here and there. You have your celica which you can drive when you have the MkII "under the knife" for repairs so I wouldn't let that slow you down.

As for your questions:

1)The MkII's are generally all the same. I don't think the 86's are any more reliable than the 82's. The 82's do have some 1 year only parts, and the later models (85,86) have more sensors in their EFI systems than the eariler ones do. The power increases over the years. I believe the 1982's had 145HP, and by 1986 they were up to 160HP, though almost all used MkII's have over 100K miles so the power will less than original on all of them (unless rebuilt or modded).

2)My 83' was originally clocked at 8.4 sec 0-60 and a top end of 127MPH, according to the magazines.

3)Every time I work on my MkII I am impressed by the engineering that went into it. I think it is a very reasonable car to work with and much better than most, in terms of accesability, and ease of maintenance. As for parts, you can still get most driveline parts from a Toyota dealer. Body parts are probably becoming a little harder to find.

4)I bought my 83' in August of 1989 with 105K miles on it. It had the head rebuilt at 150K and it now has 229K on it. The trans has been rebuilt twice, and the diff replaced once with a used diff. It still starts easy and runs smooth and gets 23MPG on the highway. Not bad for a 20 year old car, in my opinion.

5)MkIII's do have a head gasket issue, but I think a good aftermarket gasket can overcome this. The MkIII's are heavy cars, and I don't know how well they would do on an AutoX course. A friend of mine used to have an 87' N/A Supra and it was never faster than my 83'. The interior ws really nice though.

6)My car is a 5 speed, so I don't know about the auto trans performance.

7)I have not taken my MkII to the autoX as I do not trust the brakes and suspension (I need to go through them). While I think it would be a fun car, I do not think you would be getting FTD (Fastest time of the day) in a MKII. The good part is if you are running stock rims, the tires will be so cheap that you can slide around on every lap and not worry about tire costs!

 

[pdupler]

Any year better than the others? IIRC, the 84 w/5sp and all 85 and 86 were 160hp (9.2:1 compression) while all 82-83 and 84 w/automagic is 145hp (8.8:1). I think thats the only notable difference. After that its a matter of personal preference for the style. Are they fast in stock form? Not really because you have to remember they were made during a time when automotive technology just wasn't advanced enough to make lots of power AND meet emissions requirements at the same time. There are some reasonable alternatives for improvement however. Very easy to work on is a plus. Some may say the 22r is easier and you may be spoiled but I've worked on Fords for comparison. Fords come apart and go together again only with the aid of a five pound brass hammer. Supra parts have the same precise fit that you are used to with your Celicas. In addition, you probably already know a good 50% of its components. 5m engine is bulletproof if you maintain it. All mechanical parts are available but many cosmetic items are becoming scarce. Automagics don't rob 20% power like some people would have you believe. I dynoed a 85 5m with auto at 139rwhp, then dropped that same motor in another member's 85 w/5sp and he got 143, so there's only 4 hp lost assumably to the torque converter (of course there could be other factors). They do feel more sluggish tho because power is taken right off the top in spinning up that converter. One of our members, Don L has been quite successful in autocrossing a mk2 but he's been at it for years and made extensive suspension modifications that you probably wouldn't want to try if you intend to drive on the street as well. The mk3 supra is very nice street car but its a whale on the commonly shorter autocross courses because by the time the turbo is spooled, you're on the brakes again.

Phil D.

 

[3000cc MK2]

Being a Toyota guys ever since I laid my eyes on my first car the Corolla GT-Apex (1988) well I would have to go for the AE86 being a very balanced car with alot of aftermarket parts still available... a very nice car to built for autocrossing a wide ranges of engines to get... a lot of autocrossers considering to get a Toyota would go for a AE86 Corolla and a MK1 MR2 for the engine is bullet proof and the realibilty is endless....
I have a coule of friends who has a mildy modded AE86 that ripps the tarmac for some autocrossing and drifting... the MK2 Supra is just too heavy for your application and parts are not as available as the AE86... the only down fall is that it is hard to find a nice condition AE86 or if you ever find one it would cause a lot for it is a very nice a car

 

[esanmiguel]

Ok, you guys convinced me that the mk2 Supra probably won't be the best autocrosser. This narrows down my choices to the following cars below. If you guys know anything about the cars below or if you have owned one before, I would appreciate some input.

I do have a budget, so this list is limited:

Mk1 or Mk2 Toyota MR2
1992-1995 Infiniti G20 (SR20DE, multi-link rear, LSD).
1992 Nissan 240SX
1992 BMW 318i or 325i
85 AE86
1990-92 Nissan 300ZX
Second Gen RX-7

 

[BillyM]

Now, all you are hearing from is the people who do not autox their cars regularly. After getting used to my car in the first couple events (first one was 3 weeks after buying the car) I started posting times all within 1second of taking the win in Gstock. Also , previous to the last event, have been running literally 10yr old dryrotted tires, and just recently changed them out with some 420treadwear 60,000mile falken zeix, by no means race tires. When I got the new tires, I also got new rear shocks, both were blown, still having yet to replace the completely blown front struts.

Sofar, I have been really competetive, getting some respect at different events for holding so close to their local gstock champs. I have still yet to get a set of hoosiers and front struts and really even the playing fields. =)

For autocrossing its not exactly the best either. Stock tire size is 225/60/14 there are just no good wide 14" tires made anymore

Kuhmo makes their followup model to the victoracers in 225/50/14, go take a look at ANY autox, and take a count of tires, you will find mostly Kuhmo or Azenis on anything in STX or STS. If you are in G-stock, everyone who really wants to win will be on Hoosiers, again, 225/50/14...

Have you ever run in gstock and compared times? I have on 420tw zeix's, and found that I can hold my own against other cars (cooper-S, starion turbo, contour SVT, 240's) all on hoosiers, azenis, and kuhmos with 3-10+yrs experience, whereas I have less than 1yr experience.

The MkII is not a bad choice, but you might want to look at a MR2 or a miata if you want to do a lot of AutoX with the car.

While I think it would be a fun car, I do not think you would be getting FTD (Fastest time of the day) in a MKII. The good part is if you are running stock rims, the tires will be so cheap that you can slide around on every lap and not worry about tire costs!

*sarcasm* Oh yea, the 1.8L miata class CStock is really easy to win, there are only like 15-20 miatas out there every time, tons of them with 225/50/14 hoosiers shoe-horned on their stock rims, with drivers who have been autox'n their miatas for 5+ years now. Btw, naturally aspriated mr2 is in with the 1.6L miatas, fiero v6 and NA rx7's (which are fast as shit) in EStock, and there is usually a few good drivers in that class too.

And show me any 30+ vehicle event where a stock car gets FTD, when I am within 0.6s of a gstock win, I am 6s behind FTD.

--BillyM
Down with the knowledge-less haters...

 

[dogstar]

falken azenis are avaliable in our size, or close to it, as are the kumhos.

both are good choices, as they have lower cost than most comparable tires.

the mkII, in my somewhat limited experience is a good, easy car to work on.
ive wrenched fords, nissans, hondas (suck!), chevys, and a couple VWs.
the supra is the easiest car to work on, fords are evil, i agree, you do need a five pound hammer to do anything to them.
hondas... well, i hope you have small hands

the supra has lots of room, and there are few of those stupid bolts that you need a specialized tool for.

 

[BillyM]

falken azenis are avaliable in our size, or close to it

195/60... Not quite close enough for my liking. I think those kuhmos are our best bet. If they made the Azenis in 215-245/50, youd better damn believe I would sell my liver for a set, and I love to drink almost as much as I love my car.

--BillyM
Viva La Autox!

 

[SilverMk2]

The big advantage with something like a Miata is that every autoX has at least 5 Miatas show up. This way you can compare your performance with those of others with a nice sample size. With a MkII you'll be lucky to every see another show up. So you'll have no real idea if you are the next Micheal Schumacher or not.

If you want a really fun car to drive take a look at NA 89-96 300ZXs. They are pretty cheap these days. The downside is that they are nightmare to do mechanical work on. Although they are very solid cars. Another fun car to drive are Honda CRXs and early 90's hatches. They are extremely pratical, very reliable, parts are cheap, handle great, and can be pretty quick. Downside is that it will probably be stolen within a year.

If you have a Celica GTS you basically know what a Supra is like. A little more luxury stuff, a nicer more powerful engine, a longer hood, factory foglights, but the overall drive is the same. Ultimate performance car they are not. Most newer cars will out brake and handle a MkII with every bolt on suspension part you can buy with ease.