Toyota Celica Supra Forum banner
1 - 20 of 128 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all, I've been gathering suspension and brake parts for my setup for the last year or so and after going through the first major steps of my restoration and engine setup the time has come to start assembling all the suspension and brake bits 'n' pieces on the car.

Some of you may have gotten a preview from my restoration thread but I thought it would be right to demonstrate/display my upgrades and some modifications that I've done in a different thread that would be placed in the relevant section (i.e.:here :) ).

So after reinforcing the body of the car (see front/rear strut towers & interior crossmembers 2 floor spot welding-stiching) this is what is going on the front:





Here's what we got here:
- Whiteline 27mm front sway bar,
- T3 camber adjustable pillow-ball mounts (that will unfortunatelly require the strut towers to be redrilled in order to be alligned correctly),
- billet strut top hats,
- LEDA custom struts 15-level adjustable,
- LEDA 400lbs 10" springs,
- full Super Pro polyurethane bush kit and
- 35mm 6061 aluminum RCAs.


Close ups of the RCAs:








Close up of the T3 camber adjustable pillow-ball mounts:





I have to admit that the built quality on these things is beautiful and their bolt pattern matches the strut towers perfectly, only problem is that they seem to be the AE86 units :frown:.
Here's a couple of pictures of how they can be mounted:










This has been stated before and unfortunatelly it's obvious that these are alligned in a way that they will affect caster as well as camber when adjusted. I tried to make sure that these were mkii specifing before I bought them about a year ago. I spoke with Gabriel prior to ordering these and he ensured me that they would fit the mkii fine. Obviously this wasn't the case unfortunatelly and I only had the chance to test fit them a few days ago. So I did what fellow member Joe Bartek did here http://www.pbase.com/solo1supra/image/44302227 . Yeap I had my strut towers redrilled and they are now alligned perfectly.

All the above parts will be mounted on as soon as the rest of the suspension parts (control arms, hubs) are back from getting powder coated. Obviously pictures will follow :) .

Updates on the brake and rear suspension setup will follow through as they occur ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,123 Posts
Glad that photo helped you out Yannis. T3 does put out quality parts.
The camber plates he offers now are MKII specific.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
Have you test fitted the wheels with those coilovers. With my shortened struts, I can only fit an 8 inch spring (maybe a 9 if I want a near stock ride height) before my lower perch interferes with the tire. Of course it all depends on wheel offset and how much space you have between the tire and strut body. Just an observation with the 10 inch springs. Those are a nice strut setup. Is that a one-off from Leda, or do they have an application for our vehicles?

With those camber plates, I've actually seen STi owners redrill their camber plates so when you adjust the camber to negative, it will increase caster as well, just like the last picture of the camber plate. So to some, that application might be more ideal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Solo1Supra said:
Glad that photo helped you out Yannis. T3 does put out quality parts.
The camber plates he offers now are MKII specific.
I wish the ones I bought back then were MKII specific too as I was told :frown: Anyway the way you dealt with it solves the problem alright :good:



chrisfromda909 said:
wow, look at all that eye candy... how much did those custom struts cost you?
A full front/rear struts/coils/perches combo costed me about $1500 5 years ago. Leda need the stock fronts in order to modify them into the shape and form you see here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Sean Chung said:
Have you test fitted the wheels with those coilovers. With my shortened struts, I can only fit an 8 inch spring (maybe a 9 if I want a near stock ride height) before my lower perch interferes with the tire. Of course it all depends on wheel offset and how much space you have between the tire and strut body. Just an observation with the 10 inch springs.
Sean there was no problem there when I had them on with +7 +8 offset wheels (ones in my sig) and they certaintly will be fine with my new front wheels that have a -2 offset.




Sean Chung said:
Those are a nice strut setup. Is that a one-off from Leda, or do they have an application for our vehicles?
These are a one off yes. I called them, gave them all the details of the car and sent them a pair of stock front struts. I think it took a bit over a month to have them done. They actually have a more uprated option with external gas tubes which they spec as their racing version. I think it's bumb/rebound adjustable too. When I asked for it back then they said that since the car will be for street use they wouldn't recommended it. I should have been more persistant...




Sean Chung said:
With those camber plates, I've actually seen STi owners redrill their camber plates so when you adjust the camber to negative, it will increase caster as well, just like the last picture of the camber plate. So to some, that application might be more ideal.
So is caster adjustable on our cars or would that have been the only way to do it? And will it be beneficial to alter caster and in what way? Also will the adjustment proportion between camber/caster be ok the way the plates were fitted on my second picture? Sorry for all the questions but you seem to know your suspension stuff Sean...:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
Caster is adjustable on our cars, but only to a certain extent. The strut rod can be adjusted shorter, which pulls the tire forward, increasing caster. Right now I have mine adjusted to the max (bottomed on the threads) and the tire is fairly close to the front edge of the flare. On my friends turbo mk2, he has his intercooler piping running through on the right side, and if he adjusts the caster positive any more, the tire will hit the piping. I suggested he get a camber plate like yours to get more caster.

Now the benefits of more caster (to an extent) Increasing caster will give you more negative camber on turns, allowing you to run less static camber for the same result. Also positive caster shifts weight rearward, something most of our cars need to help balance the handling. The negative, if you can call it that, is that supposedly steering becomes heavier. Not noticable with power steering.

With the strut rod adjustment maxed out, I'm still within stock specs, iirc. If I wanted any more, I would have to move the top of the strut. The problem with the camber plate set at an angle is that if the left and right side are not set in the same spot, caster would be different side to side. Then adjusting the strut rods to compensate might end up with a tire setback from the other side. It would only work if the chassis was very straight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
683 Posts
I like the custom struts alot, and the purple looks sweet. I've been collecting my suspension stuff for awhile too. I just need my coilovers and rear springs now!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sean Chung said:
Caster is adjustable on our cars, but only to a certain extent. The strut rod can be adjusted shorter, which pulls the tire forward, increasing caster. Right now I have mine adjusted to the max (bottomed on the threads) and the tire is fairly close to the front edge of the flare. On my friends turbo mk2, he has his intercooler piping running through on the right side, and if he adjusts the caster positive any more, the tire will hit the piping. I suggested he get a camber plate like yours to get more caster.

Now the benefits of more caster (to an extent) Increasing caster will give you more negative camber on turns, allowing you to run less static camber for the same result. Also positive caster shifts weight rearward, something most of our cars need to help balance the handling. The negative, if you can call it that, is that supposedly steering becomes heavier. Not noticable with power steering.

With the strut rod adjustment maxed out, I'm still within stock specs, iirc. If I wanted any more, I would have to move the top of the strut. The problem with the camber plate set at an angle is that if the left and right side are not set in the same spot, caster would be different side to side. Then adjusting the strut rods to compensate might end up with a tire setback from the other side. It would only work if the chassis was very straight.
So Sean does the stock caster adjustment makes a noticeable difference in handling? Especially at your car that is used in competitions as I can see. I mean on this max setting that you have yours do you still see the need to increase posistive caster? And does that apply to a street only spirited driven car?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Supracress said:
I like the custom struts alot, and the purple looks sweet. I've been collecting my suspension stuff for awhile too. I just need my coilovers and rear springs now!
Don't know if Leda would be a viable option for you fellas in the states. I mean they're based in the U.K. with no other international distributors as far as I know and it would be a pita even for me (that I'm "only" 2k miles away) to have any enquiries/problems dealt with. In the back of my mind I'm still on the look out for a Tein coilover set from any other car that would be mkii compatible...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
yannis-supras said:
So Sean does the stock caster adjustment makes a noticeable difference in handling? Especially at your car that is used in competitions as I can see. I mean on this max setting that you have yours do you still see the need to increase posistive caster? And does that apply to a street only spirited driven car?
I think it helps. If I could, I would probably try more caster, but as it is, I'm at the limit. On a street car, suspension is a compromise. Your suspension build up is far from what I would consider street, though. I'm sure will be streetable, but it looks like its ready for the track. The extra caster may not be necessary for street, but it does allow you to run less negative camber (read tire wear, increased braking) while allowing good camber gain while turning (faster cornering).

Just for reference, I'm running -2.8 deg camber in the front, and 4.9 deg positive caster. I would run more camber in front, but it makes the brakes lock up too easily when i do (sacrifice braking for cornering) so extra caster probably would help if i had it. Your camber settings will probably be much less than -2 degrees, so a little extra caster would probably help for those canyon runs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sean Chung said:
I think it helps. If I could, I would probably try more caster, but as it is, I'm at the limit. On a street car, suspension is a compromise. Your suspension build up is far from what I would consider street, though. I'm sure will be streetable, but it looks like its ready for the track. The extra caster may not be necessary for street, but it does allow you to run less negative camber (read tire wear, increased braking) while allowing good camber gain while turning (faster cornering).

Just for reference, I'm running -2.8 deg camber in the front, and 4.9 deg positive caster. I would run more camber in front, but it makes the brakes lock up too easily when i do (sacrifice braking for cornering) so extra caster probably would help if i had it. Your camber settings will probably be much less than -2 degrees, so a little extra caster would probably help for those canyon runs.
Wow -2.8 deg camber in front...I'm planning on setting mine to -1 -1.2 deg maximum. I think that -2.8 deg in front would have the same effects with the excessive rear negative camber for street use i.e.:uneven tire wear, lack of traction on the straight etc. I'm thinking of setting the front at -1.2 deg as I said and less than -1 deg for the rear. Now caster, I should set it as more positive as possible by the sounds of it as there's no drawbacks but only benefits on handling from what you say.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,720 Posts
I don't think that it's accurate to say there are no drawback's with increased positive caster. I believe steering response is negatively effected but high speed stability is increased as you add positive caster. A good illustration of this is to compare the head tube angles (caster) of different motorcycles. A sport bike doesn't have the same geometry as a cruiser or chopper. It's a trade off as is almost any performance part or adjustment.

BTW I don't claim to be an authority on all suspension setups or "racecar" alignment settings I just want to make sure people do more research before adopting a given setup that may have unexpected results.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
white_mk_2 said:
I don't think that it's accurate to say there are no drawback's with increased positive caster. I believe steering response is negatively effected but high speed stability is increased as you add positive caster. A good illustration of this is to compare the head tube angles (caster) of different motorcycles. A sport bike doesn't have the same geometry as a cruiser or chopper. It's a trade off as is almost any performance part or adjustment.
I agree that too much caster will negatively affect steering response and turn-in feel, as too much of any angle will negatively affect handling. With our cars, though, there are some angles that could use a little more. For example, the stock camber spec is like +0.4 to +1.4 (what was Toyota thinking), but setting the camber more negative (-1.2 to -2.0) will improve cornering. The stock caster spec is +3.7 to +4.7. I was just saying that for improved cornering, to try more towards the high side of the spec. If someone found a way to get 6 or 7 deg, I think then it would negatively affect handling. I have found with my caster set at almost 5 deg, I have had minimal negative affect on turn-in. I've found that my car turns-in better than some other supras I've driven on the auto-x course. Alignment are just a general guidline. Everybody's car will need a different spec depending on how they drive and what they use it for. Just remember the factory specs are on the conservative side for performance, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
yannis-supras said:
Wow -2.8 deg camber in front...I'm planning on setting mine to -1 -1.2 deg maximum. I think that -2.8 deg in front would have the same effects with the excessive rear negative camber for street use i.e.:uneven tire wear, lack of traction on the straight etc. I'm thinking of setting the front at -1.2 deg as I said and less than -1 deg for the rear. Now caster, I should set it as more positive as possible by the sounds of it as there's no drawbacks but only benefits on handling from what you say.
Yanni, those camber specs sound like a good starting point. It is nice to have full adjustability like you have in your setup. Just keep and eye on your tires in the front. If they start to wear the outside edge from hard cornering, just increase the camber slightly. How do you decrease the camber in the rear? Did you get the kit to modify the rear crossmember? I wish I could get less camber in the rear. As it is, I'm at -2.5 or so, and have traction problems to show for it. As for the caster, I think it will be safe to add a little positive. As I said before, it will allow more camber-in on turns, which would help with the -1.0 to-1.2 setting on the front. Also note that the rake of the car affects caster. If you have the rear higher up than the front, caster will decrease, and visa versa.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,720 Posts
Sean Chung said:
Just remember the factory specs are on the conservative side for performance, though.
I agree :D with this and pretty much all your points. I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you I was just trying to elaborate. You seem to have more "real" suspension tuning and hands on experience with the MK2 than most others on the forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Yannis,

There are several published articles on "caster angle" that recommend not going above 7-degrees. Too much caster does adversely affect corner weighting, which in-turn affects several aspects of speed "in and around the turn." Our cars work well with 5-6 degrees of negative caster...

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Sean Chung said:
Yanni, those camber specs sound like a good starting point. It is nice to have full adjustability like you have in your setup. Just keep and eye on your tires in the front. If they start to wear the outside edge from hard cornering, just increase the camber slightly. How do you decrease the camber in the rear? Did you get the kit to modify the rear crossmember? I wish I could get less camber in the rear. As it is, I'm at -2.5 or so, and have traction problems to show for it.
I have modified my rear subframe with new 5mm thick ss brackets and about 42mm long adjusting holes for the outer spoke of the trailing arm :)



white_mk_2 said:
I don't think that it's accurate to say there are no drawback's with increased positive caster. I believe steering response is negatively effected but high speed stability is increased as you add positive caster. A good illustration of this is to compare the head tube angles (caster) of different motorcycles. A sport bike doesn't have the same geometry as a cruiser or chopper. It's a trade off as is almost any performance part or adjustment.

BTW I don't claim to be an authority on all suspension setups or "racecar" alignment settings I just want to make sure people do more research before adopting a given setup that may have unexpected results.
Sean Chung said:
As for the caster, I think it will be safe to add a little positive. As I said before, it will allow more camber-in on turns, which would help with the -1.0 to-1.2 setting on the front. Also note that the rake of the car affects caster. If you have the rear higher up than the front, caster will decrease, and visa versa.
Ok so from what I gather too much positive caster is good for high speed driving/stability but on the other hand it's bad for steering response/turn in feel, right. But a setting in the middle would benefit both e.g.: +4.5 +4.7 which is the maximum aloud as a stock setting on our front suspension which at the same time is not excessively positive to start spoiling things. Up until this point I thought that I had everything clear and that I'd be happy by setting my caster at its maximum value but ...
Carlos Brown said:
Yannis,

There are several published articles on "caster angle" that recommend not going above 7-degrees. Too much caster does adversely affect corner weighting, which in-turn affects several aspects of speed "in and around the turn." Our cars work well with 5-6 degrees of negative caster...

Regards,

Carlos
...Carlos -which I highly respect his opinion and I rate as one of the real few authorities on the mkii's suspension- here mentions that our car is working real good with 5-6 deg of negative caster and that really confused me. Carlos have you by any chance mistyped "negative" or is this your actual statement? If it is it's totally in contrast with what's been mentioned here already and I'm not sure of what conclusion to come up with :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Yannis,

Thanks for catching that, I did mistakingly call it negative when it is infact "positive!" Thats what happens when you try add posts as you are running out the door. Sorry for the confusion!

So, 5-6 degrees positive caster works great, and go no higher than 7 degrees...

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Carlos Brown said:
Yannis,

Thanks for catching that, I did mistakingly call it negative when it is infact "positive!" Thats what happens when you try add posts as you are running out the door. Sorry for the confusion!

So, 5-6 degrees positive caster works great, and go no higher than 7 degrees...

Regards,

Carlos
:good: He he it's all good, we're back on track again.
 
1 - 20 of 128 Posts
Top