Toyota Celica Supra Forum banner

1 - 20 of 45 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gentlemen,

I pulled my 2JZGE head today and began taking a few measurements before complete disassembly of the engine for machine work.

I measured the piston deck height and came up with "zero" (0.00") deck. Anyone else here measure their deck height? I am not sure if the GE and GTE are the same.

Also, as I have been shopping around for head gaskets I have been trying to settle on a thickness. I have done 1.2mm before on the 5M, but have never dealt with 2JZ head gaskets before. So, I decided to measure the head gasket that was currently installed on the motor.

As it turns out, It was a single layer metal gasket (with seemingly no seals) that was only 0.015" (0.38mm) thick. I am shocked! Could this possibly be standard? With a zero-deck and a head gasket of only 0.015", surely the piston would hit the head at high RPM's.

I have reviewed several head building specs over the years and most have recommended a head quench area of no less then 0.060", although some admit to creeping closer to 0.045". If this is true, how can you possibly run an 0.015" head gasket on an engine with zero-deck?

Anyone else measure their head gasket thickness, know what the OEM thickness is?

Best Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Gentlemen,

Okay, I have a couple of responses to the question, although not yet completely confirmed...

I did receive confirmation that the GE head gasket is only ~0.3-0.38mm thick. The other owner even sent a pic of his micrometer on the gasket...

Wow, this means that the surfaces on the head and block need to be nearly perfect, because this metal head gasket is thinner than the cam case gaskets on the 5MGE.

Next, this means that the GE combustion chamber is slightly recessed to account for piston to head clearance. Preliminarily, it looks as if the GE motor came from the factory with about a 0.060" quench area (squish area) built in. This 0.060" piston to head clearance is usually the minimum recommended clearance.

So, what happens when I have the head milled and the block decked for another gasket? This will be interesting because a 1.2mm gasket will still be too thick, unless I really go after the head.

It has also been confirmed that the block has a "zero deck."

Oh well! I included pictures below that contrast the difference between the GTE and GE combustion chambers...

Regards,

Carlos



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
Carlos,
The 1j/2j gte head gasket is multi-layered. I have 2 right now. I can measure one tonight if you like unless someone already knows the thickness. The bottom of your head does look slightly different, but it looks similar enough to where I think the GTE gasket might work.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Pituala,

Please, go ahead and measure them if you would! What I have been told is that the GTE gasket is ~1.2-1.5mm, while the GE gasket is ~0.38mm. The GE makes up for such a thin gasket by sinking the entire combustion chamber into the head by about 0.045". The GE therefore ends up with about a 0.060" quench area, while the GTE with a "zero deck" and a 1.5mm gasket would also end up at ~0.060" quench area.

If I add a 1.2mm gasket to the GE without milling I will end up with ~0.092" quench area. Going from 0.060" to 0.090" will result in about a 0.7:1 loss in compression. Certainly not an option!

Consequently, I would have to mill 0.032" off of the head in order to use a 1.2mm gasket. Not a lot of options...

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Gentlemen,

I measured the combustion chamber depth today and came up with ~0.025-0.028". Based on this measurement, I may just have the head milled 0.025" and install a 1.4mm gasket. I will consider all of my options before making any commitments however.

I also measured my piston-to-valve clearance for both Intake and exhaust right at ~0.105". I am planning to run 264 duration cams in this motor, so my cam lift will be about 1mm higher.

Question! How have you guys managed to get the valves out of the JZ heads? My traditional valve spring compressor would barely work on the 5M motor. No way it works on this one!

Also, any of you guys running "shimless buckets" or considering it?

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
722 Posts
I plan on running shimless buckets in my next build. I have an assortment of about 80 pieces I got from 2AZ engines. They are very light compared to the shim over bucket type. The shim under bucket type are pretty light as well, and the shims don't cost nearly as much, if that is an option. My friend has the shim under bucket on his 3rd gen MR2 engine (JDM). After consideration of converting his engine to shimless buckets, we decided it wasn't worth the effort for the minimal weight savings. It definately is for the large, heavy shim over bucket type,though.

Good info on the 2JZ-GE, as that is my plan for my next build as well. I feel the 6m has limitations the 2jz does not, rpm and flow-wise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Frank,

I have a list of part numbers for some MR2 shimless buckets that I am considering! I am actually less concerned about the weight savings, and more concerned about losing shims at high RPM's. This may just be a freak thing though, and not a typical occurence!

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,617 Posts
Carlos, why don't you just shave the head the standard amount and run a stock toyota 2jzge head gasket? Toyota fixed the 7mgte HG issue by going metal, so theres really no performance advantage to an aftermarket gasket unless you want to raise compression by going thinner, which apparently you can't do. Going thicker seems backwards to me. 2jzges aren't that high compression, 10:1 or 10.5:1 on the later ones. A standard head resurfacing will only barely affect that. If you want a larger compression increase, shave more.

As for the valve and keeper design, its the same as the 7ms, 4ages, 3sges, etc. A 5m style valve compressor is useless on this style of head. You need one of these...


They compress the valve retainer with a cylinder shapped press that passes over the keeper so they can be grabbed with a magnet. Locally these were about 100 bucks when I needed one for a 4age I built, so being the cheap SOB I am... I mean keen enthusiast, I made my own from a big ass C clamp and a deep socket I cut the sides out of. It worked fine, but to be honest its still a PITA dealing with this style of valve train, very time consuming, and that was on a 16 valve motor! Machine shops have a special big dollar valve compressor for this style of head that the head is bolted into and this sliding swing arm can very quickly press each one out. To be honest, on a 24 valve head you might just want to pay the maching shop an hour or so's labour to remove and install the valves for you. Probably would cost you about the same as buying the tool and will literally save you a days work. Removing them isn't so bad, but reinstalling them is a bitch.

As for spitting shims, this is something that happens at much higher RPMs with big cams. 4ages don't do this till around the 9grand range, I don't think you'll be spinning a 2jzge anywhere near that so I would just stick with the stock buckets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Seamus,

I have never seen a valve spring compressor quite like that! I would buy one so that I don't have to rely on a machine shop to do all of my work. I will have to see if I can source one of those out.

I am planning to run the motor at about 7,500 RPM or so. No way I would run enough cam to spin at 9,000 RPM. As it stands, the 264's may barely make that mark...

The problem I may potentially run into with the engine milling is the quench area. The motor is already set up with about a 0.060" quench area. Once I prep the block and head for the metal gasket, even just a small amount, I am easily approaching 0.050" on the quench area. This generally tends to be the tightest tolerance that you want to run here. I will see how much material needs to be removed from each surface before making any final decisions.

I have no plans to raise compression by milling - as it stands I am looking for a set of high comp pistons...

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,567 Posts
You want to buy a tool like this to do the valves with link

You can find them for around $70 if you look around. Mine was made by KD. With this tool you can do them with the head on or off the car. You can also do it with a home made tool, but it much more frustrasting to assemble them. If you want to just take it apart get a PCV pipe and press on the retainer and usually they will fall apart.
HTH
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Gentlemen,

Thanks for the info, but I think I am going to look for a traditional valve spring compressor that has an adaptation for these motors. I take engines apart quite a bit when I am experimenting (R&D), so I need something that is easy-out and easy-in...

Pituala,

Please tell me a little more about the buckets! Which vehicle did you source them from? Also, what were the few steps that you followed in determining which buckets to order for each valve? I measured all of my valve clearances at 0.007-0.008" for the Intakes, and 0.011-0.012" for the exhaust valves. I have yet to determine the thickness of each bucket.

To save 0.8lbs does not seem like much, but when you consider reducing the weight that each valve spring has to move, it can make a difference in reliability... That equates to 363 grams or 15 grams/valve.

Regards,

Carlos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
Pituala,

Please tell me a little more about the buckets! Which vehicle did you source them from? Also, what were the few steps that you followed in determining which buckets to order for each valve? I measured all of my valve clearances at 0.007-0.008" for the Intakes, and 0.011-0.012" for the exhaust valves. I have yet to determine the thickness of each bucket.

To save 0.8lbs does not seem like much, but when you consider reducing the weight that each valve spring has to move, it can make a difference in reliability... That equates to 363 grams or 15 grams/valve.

Regards,

Carlos
Carlos they're from an MR2 Spyder....but I'll do ya one better....

1JZ/2JZ shimless buckets/lifters

Here are the part numbers and sizes for the shimless buckets:

13751-46030 5.06 mm

13751-46040 5.08

13751-46050 5.10

13751-46060 5.12

13751-46070 5.14

13751-46080 5.16

13751-46090 5.18

13751-46100 5.20

13751-46110 5.22

13751-46120 5.24

13751-46130 5.26

13751-46140 5.28

13751-46150 5.30

13751-46160 5.32

13751-46170 5.34

13751-46180 5.36

13751-46190 5.38

13751-46200 5.40

13751-46210 5.42

13751-46220 5.44

13751-46230 5.46

13751-46240 5.48

13751-46250 5.50

13751-46260 5.52

13751-46270 5.54

13751-46280 5.56

13751-46290 5.58

13751-46300 5.60

13751-46310 5.62

13751-46320 5.64

13751-46330 5.66

13751-46340 5.68

13751-46350 5.70

13751-46360 5.72

13751-46370 5.74
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
Simple,

Measure the valve clearance, then remove all buckets keeping them numbered as to where they go, use a micrometer and measure their thichness, calculate desired clearance, go to Toyota and order valve buckets for a MR-2 spyder they are availabel in .02mm incriments, fit perfectly no machining required cost about 300$ for all 24. I did it to mine and seems to rev a little smoother at higher rpm.

Ishii
(toyota master tech)


On average the stock shims and buckets weigh about 44-45g each. My complete set of stock buckets and shims weighed in at 1044g = 2.30lbs. The shimless bucket weighed in at 28g each x 24 = 672g = 1.48lbs. In total that is over .8 lbs of weight saving in the valve train. I'm not revving high or making 1000rwhp so for me this is just educational but to those of you out there that are building something serious this might be some good info, cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,255 Posts
Pituala,

Please tell me a little more about the buckets! Which vehicle did you source them from? Also, what were the few steps that you followed in determining which buckets to order for each valve? I measured all of my valve clearances at 0.007-0.008" for the Intakes, and 0.011-0.012" for the exhaust valves. I have yet to determine the thickness of each bucket.

To save 0.8lbs does not seem like much, but when you consider reducing the weight that each valve spring has to move, it can make a difference in reliability... That equates to 363 grams or 15 grams/valve.

Regards,

Carlos
And Carlos,
I'm going to use all 5.40mm shims. That's the one exactly in the middle in thickness range. The machinist is going to set the valve clearance using that size shim and cut the clearance into the valvejob. That way later down the line if I change cams and need to resize I have a full range to use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Pituala,

Thanks for that info, that is great! I will have to reassemble the head and take new measurements after I have had the valves ground. Then I will determine which bucket is needed for each valve. Thanks again for the info!

Regards,

Carlos
 
1 - 20 of 45 Posts
Top