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Discussion Starter #41
Eagle makes 5M rods, don't they?

I think those are the ones Raptor sells.

- Jim
I thought they did but really cant find anyone who sells them.
Pauter has a set listed on their site but they run around $1,500 for a set. Forged pistons for the 5mge are also rare and expensive. Both of which I dont really need as this is a pretty mild setup with a W58 and fairly weak ma61 rear end.
Building up a 5mge for high power these days is probably not worth it as you can buy and build a 2jz/1jz for less money considering how cheap the parts for them are.

Here is the chinese rod vendor It looks like this is where eagle or any of those other generic forged H beam rod companies get their rods from. Pauter X beam rods might even be sourced from here.
You can get a set of these rods for a 2jz on ebay for $266 shipped. Honestly even the mainly H beams look to be the same as these rods.
I could try and do a group buy with them but to be honest who else is building a 5mge? I would need like 8 other people to spend $300 or so to make it worth it
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Forged-4340-Rods-for-Toyota-5M_60491690599.html
 

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One of my current Pontiac engine books says that most of the forgings are sourced from China these days. The QC and final machining are done here, but the raw forgings are from China.

The same thing has happened with big power vacuum tubes. They come from either China or Russia, and the guys here in the states test the living snot out of them to weed out the bad ones, and then resell them.

Geez.....don't we make anything here anymore?
 

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Maybe I missed it, but why not go 6mge? Wouldn't that be cheaper and easier to just bolt everything you already have in the 5m head to the 7m bottom end and retune for the change in displacement rather than swapping an entire new motor in?

I mean, by all means do whatever you want! Haha I totally support any toyota engine swap into these cars, just figured for time and money a 6m would be cheaper and quicker.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Maybe I missed it, but why not go 6mge? Wouldn't that be cheaper and easier to just bolt everything you already have in the 5m head to the 7m bottom end and retune for the change in displacement rather than swapping an entire new motor in?

I mean, by all means do whatever you want! Haha I totally support any toyota engine swap into these cars, just figured for time and money a 6m would be cheaper and quicker.
6mge is hard to find and has limited aftermarket support. With the JZ series of engines you can buy really any part you want and its will be cheap/good.

I am going to throw a set of stock rods into the 5mge and see how it runs. Going to reduce the RPM limter from 6,800 to 6,600 I feel the long thin rod is the weak link on the 5mge.
Pistons seem quite strong as does the crank and block. Ill try and get some runs on a dyno with it at 15 or so lbs of boost.
They stopped selling E85 in my area and now sell E54 only so the tune will need some adjusting.
 

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If you use a 7m crank and rods in the 5m block, it is essentially a 6mge. 7mgte rods have ARP rod bolts available, but you can also get Eagle rods for the 7m fairly cheap. Use a 7m crank pulley, and run the power steering off the water pump only, and for the ac, if using the 5mge compressor, use a compressor clutch and pulley for an 88 ford crown vic 5.0. The belt will need to be 1 rib narrower for the ac. It will leave 1 empty rib on the compressor and crank pulley, but at opposite ends.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
I thought you had to machine something on the crank or was that just to use the 5mge pulley on the 7m crank?
Does the pistons need a special compression height or is it the shorter 7m rods corrects for the longer 7m crank stroke?
CXracing has some chinese forged 4340 rods for $238 shipped for the 7mgte
So a 6m/7m stock crank with some cheap ebay rods and some low compression 82 spec cast pistons could result in a stout bottom end for a budget turbo setup.
 

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The 9.2:1 compression 5m pistons will yeild a 9.8:1 compression on 7m crank and rods. If going turbo, I would use the 8.8 pistons as that yeilds 9.2:1 compression, and is how the 6mge is built by Toyota. These numbers are assuming no material being removed from the head or block of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
The 9.2:1 compression 5m pistons will yeild a 9.8:1 compression on 7m crank and rods. If going turbo, I would use the 8.8 pistons as that yeilds 92:1 compression, and is how the 6mge is built by Toyota. These numbers are assuming no material being removed from the head or block of course.
I cant find anywhere that even sells the 82 dished pistons everything I see is the domed varients. Not looking for a forged set just basic cast ones.
I know ebay used to list both types but not anymore

Went digging in some parts catalogs DNJ only lists one type P941 which is the high compression one.
Found ITM lists the 8.8:1 pistons under the 1983 Cressida but not under the Celica or Supra

Low compression ITM piston part number
RY6149
High compression piston part number
RY6486
 

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The early lower compression 5MGE pistons aren't dished. They just have a slightly lower dome height than the later, higher compression versions. These would be for all 82 - 84 5MGE's except 84 P type Supra 5 speeds. These are also what was used in 84 - 87 6MGE's as Will stated. The higher compression pistons are for 84P 5 speeds as well as all 85 - 86 5MGE's. There might still be pictures of both types somewhere on the forum to make differentiating the two easier, most likely posted by Tanya.
The low compression 83 Cressida piston might be for a 5ME, and may or may not be the same.
 

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Rock auto also has ENGINETECH P41696 pistons 1mm overbore. $11.44 each, and you must buy the ring set separately. You could run the 9.2:1 pistons and run e85. Would make a lot more tq. Honestly, since going turbo, i would look at forged pistons though. A lot more forgiving when tuning etc...
 

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Thinking of going 5mgte in my 85 and using MS as you did. Any new updates on your's? I only want 8-10psi with 220-250whp. I have my MKIV for the more serious power.

This old girl just needs some more ooomph !!! Thanks.
 

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Any new updates on your's?
I figured my brother would have updated this thread. I did almost all the work on it and made most of the guide that he posted.

The car has been running for about a year. I rebuilt the engine after the failure.

Bent 5 of the 6 rods when the wastegate went full boost(I think heat soak softened the wastegate line enough so it kinked). Still ran perfectly fine but had the slightest bit of tick, almost like a sticky valve lifter(which we changed). Turns out that the most bent rod was ever so slightly tapping the bottom of the piston bore. It was not damaged enough to make the block useless. He got rods from somebody on this forum, iirc, with the same bearing size and we just swapped them over with a fresh set of OEM pistons. The bearing surfaces looked fine and the plastigauge was within spec, so no machining was done other then honeing the bores by hand.

I think a 60-1 would have about as much power as the stock axles and trans can reliably handle. I'm trying to get my brother to take it to a dyno so we can get some real numbers... but when it was on 16psi w/ E85 , I would guess it was north of 350 whp. It was trapping at 104mph @ 9psi on 50/50 110 and 91. At 16psi on E85 it felt significantly faster, but he never ran the track with that setup.

Cant post video or images until my post count is higher, but I'll get my brother to post something.

U8HGiO26DBw is a youtube vid of it running from march.


and for a picture of the bent rods:

i dot gyazo dot com thumb slash 1000 slash 72e17ac7f0babc78ae8a7b9f9c6e4157-jpg dot jpg

edit with more info

Its possible that the rods were already slightly bent from a sticking fuel injector. When we first got the car running 1 of the injectors was stuck open max and hydrolock the engine on fuel on the very first kick of the starter. We didnt think much of it at the time since it ran fine, after replacing the 1 injector, and the compression test didn't show any sign of variation across the cylinders. Same thing happened this time around on 2 of the injectors(after siting a year)... so word to the wise. DO NOT USE THE INJECTORS THAT MY BROTHER GOT and I would highly recommend pulling the plugs if you ever let the car sit for a long time, incase the injectors fail open and hydrolock your engine.

That said, I dont think it could have bent anything this time because the battery voltage was like 10 volts on the first kick of the starter and I didnt keep trying like I did the first time.

Also, we didnt have an oil cooler on the car, and no temp gauge on the oil. The rods bent when he got on it, after sitting at a stop light for about 2 min... after driving for about 35min on the freeway. It could be that the bottom end was hotter then it should have been which may have softened the metal of the rods just enough that it couldn't handle a busted wastegate? I would probably include an oil cooler if you add in a turbo.
 

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Discussion Starter #53


Here are the rods
The engine was still running just a light taping sound from one of the rods hitting the side of the block
Tune is back on 91 for now because we dont have E85 on E54. Its been a little side project for me and my brother.
 

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Heat may cause some abnormal issues with octane, no way it's going to be making any metal engine components inside weak. Overheating warps heads. Rods bend from cylinder pressure or hydrolock, but if the static compression is similar, I doubt anything was bent from fuel.

Did you use stock rods? I didn't read anywhere they were upgraded, but that would have saved this build. Once they bent, you lowered the cylinder pressure. You should clear 500+whp on E54 safely, turbo dependent.

A busted wastegate is basically all or none of the boost. Looks like you fed it all to her. Fail-safes like a boost cut are great.

I hope you get it back together, looks like a lot of fun.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Its rebuilt now and is running on 91 octane. Aftermarket rods are basically non existent for the 5mge unless you get a custom set made. I
The tune did have a boost cut setup but if the WG line kinked it wouldn't allow the mac valve to vent so it would go full boost. It happened at 6,600~ RPM too not much time that high up.
Its been sitting mostly with a rough 91 tune.

I think the 5mge rods are the weak link of the engine 400whp~ I feel is the max. I plan to keep the RPM lower and the boost lower this time.
The turbo came off a 7m that made 343whp at 9.6psi. It was rebuilt and has a GTX style clip on the turbine side but stock compressor side.
The MK2 was very very fast at 15-16lbs of boost. It felt like it had more power than my C5 corvette that I just took the track and ran 11.90s at 119.


 

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This is for the people who are looking to turbo their 5m-ge engine. This will sort of be a how to or at least how I did it. I had a turbo setup with a RRFPR and it never really ran well at all so I changed just about everything.
It is a pretty cheap setup in terms of cost but it is a full standalone setup. It was a pretty easy and straight forward install. Easier than even a PNP AEM on a 7mgte because of the multiplex crap that never seems to work right.

How it runs after 30 mins of basic tuning
Still needs a lot more tuning but it runs ok and boosts fine

Factory Service Repair Manual(TSRM) For the 85/86 supra
MK2 TSRM On-Line

Main parts
Late year 5mge early years will work fine as well but you will need some of the later year parts
4 wire stock TPS Make sure the TPS works. Mine did not work so I pulled all apart and it seems like the ceramic solder points dont hold and it loses connection inside.
Stock coolant temp sensor
Stock ignition setup with stock VR pickups(2 of them)
$30~ GM 3 Bar map sensor
$20~ GM IAT(Any IAT should work I use a buick GNX)
$210+ 750cc high impedance injectors bosch style
$120~ Walbro 450 in tank pump
Stock fuel lines/rail/FPR
$360~ ECU is a Microsquirt V3 with the 8 foot harness yes Microsquirt
CT26 with 7mgte exhaust manifold
$50-$150~ Oil feed and return lines soft line kit works the best(rabidchimp, arizona performance, drift motion, ebay ect)
Return bung welded oil pan
$50-$350~ 2.5 inch IC pipes with matching IC diameter(can be same side exit or normal or even stock 7mgte stuff)
IAC removed and blocked on intake
EGR blocked on intake manifold and head/exhaust side
$125~ Wideband O2 sensor I use the LC-1 but a cheaper one is the Spartan V2 from 14point7 which should be fine
Downpipe with O2 bung
Turbo to airfilter pipe(accordion pipe)
Colder spark plugs I used NGK BRP8ES

This runs $1100~ plus whatever it costs you for the parts that dont have prices next to them.

Recommend/optional parts
Oil filter relocation kit(cant replace filter without pulling turbo without this)
Stronger clutch if running more than 5psi or sticky tires mine was new and slips
Bigger radiator with electric fans( I use a MKIII aluminium one off ebay)

Microsquirt ECU is basically Megasquirt V2 with some unique features and some missing features
The V3 version is important here because it has dual spark. Update to firmware version to MS2/Extra 3.3.3
It does not have stepper motor controll so it cant run the stock IAC but if you want an IAC you can get a PWM valve.

Fuel setup
Drop the tank and install the walbro fuel pump in the stock pickup
Install the injectors into the stock fuel rail.
Replace the fuel filter

You can run any size injector you want I just chose the 750cc because I plan to run e85 at 15psi of boost
Just make sure whatever injector you run is high impedance OR you have resistors installed inline as the ECU cant run more than 2 if low impedance.
Also check your injectors before you install them one of mine was stuck wide open and flowed full flow of gas directly into the intake manifold filling nearly
the entire engine with fuel
Fuel injector wiring makes this batch injection the microsquirt does not have enough outputs to run sequential injection
The injectors and ECU need to run off the same 12v relay
You should solder and heatwrap all connection you make if possible
The stock fuel pump relay is triggered off a wire that normally runs off the stock AFM
You can wire this as shown in the images to have it run off key on


Wiring
Begin by removing the entire stock engine harness and ECU. The harness will pull through the firewall without needing to cut anything off.
Cut the TPS and coolant sensor connectors off you will be reusing them.
Wire using the diagram below and the microsquirt website here
MicroSquirt® Wiring
All of the wires on the harness that comes with the ECU is labeled
You need a switched 12v power supply from a relay for the ECU and injectors

Turbo/charge piping
Trim the exhaust manifold to clear the power steering bracket a grinder worked for me.
Pull the oil pan and get a bung welded to it. I suggest a -10 AN bung for the drain.
The block has a oil port on it which is BSP thread use that for the feed. You can buy BSP to -4 AN if you are using AN
Double check the wastegate is working and install the turbo make sure you have gaskets where needed.
Routing the intercooler pipes can be a pain and is up to you how you want them routed.
I suggest using T-bolt clamps for everything if you can
The charge piping needs to flex a bit as the engine moves side to side under loads.
Install the downpipe I would not recomend a stock MKIII one
You can get a nice elbow and get a downpipe/exhaust made at a shop for pretty cheap as well.


Also if looking for parts on Rockauto
Look under celica then select 2.8l engine
Way more selection compared to selecting supra on the list
This is the best way to buy OEM type chassis parts like bushing that I have found.

Wiring diagrams
MicroSquirt® Wiring



Tune setup
Calibrate your TPS
Setup for your wideband and map you are using in the settings
Input the general settings and the basic tune settings.
ECU needs power when you burn the settings to it.
Also needs a reset(power off and back on) for some settings after you burn them.

Most important part to get your timing correct
On the ignition options menu the tooth angle will need to be adjusted
IT WILL NOT BE THE SAME AS SHOWN
For example on my setup I had to set the dizzy a tooth retarded to get it to zero out base timing
It might need to be 0 degrees or 30 degrees on your setup for the tooth angle number 1 setting
To set this correctly you need to set the fixed advance option to Fixed Timing
Using a timing light on the crank while the car is running, adjust the tooth #1 angle to get the timing to match exactly timing for fixed advance setting
I used 0 for the fixed advance setting and had to set the tooth #1 angle to 9 degrees
If it does not match going down to 0 on the setting you might need to retard or advance the distributor or even jump a tooth on it.

My car would start on rising edge setting but it would lose sync all the time at higher RPM
Falling edge cured that but it changes the timing by around 22 degrees
It is very important to make sure the ECU sees exactly the same timing as the engine is running at

This is a rough tune I made using some of the other tunes posted on here for the 7mgte like williamb82's tune in the megasquirt thread
I have driven this tune approximately 50 miles. Its a pretty safe tune I feel, AFRs run low 11s to low 10s at high rpm on boost
Max boost I have seen is about 145KPA on this setup which is around 6.5 psi I will be adjusting the tune and boosting a lot later on.
You can tune and adjust settings while driving you dont need to reset the ECU for every adjustment
ECU will show 1 sync loss every time you burn the ECU if engine is running.
YOUR TUNE WILL ALWAYS BE DIFFERENT FROM SOMEONE ELSES EVEN IF SETUP IS THE SAME CONSIDER THIS A STARTUP TUNE








Direct Link to the MSQ tune
right click save as
Make sure the file ends in .msq
not .txt
http://www.geniusvr.com/1985_Supra_microsquirt/1985_supra_tune.msq

Main forum for the MSEXTRA if you have issues with the software or anything else with the microsquirt
Megasquirt Support Forum (MSEXTRA) • MS2/Extra, MS2, Microsquirt and Microsquirt module support (View forum)

Anyone else who has a turbo 5 or 6m or 7m feel free to add some advise on the tune

1/4 times on this setup here
5mgte quarter mile 104mph trap
Hey I have a question for you, how would I run this same setup with a crank trigger and coil on plug
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Hey I have a question for you, how would I run this same setup with a crank trigger and coil on plug
MegaTune software has options for crank trigger ignition pickup. It would be a little bit of rewiring as you wont need dual pickups off the distributor.
Its not that different as its just a type digitally timed ignition timing. I think the microsquirt can only control two coils so it would still be a wasted spark setup.

Here is some info on it
 
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